Checking on a weaker hive?

Rurification · August 16, 2015, 08:45:08 AM

I had a feeling I should check one of my hives last weekend and sure enough, when I got in there, there were no eggs, larvae, stores, etc. So I gave them a frame of capped brood and a partially drawn frame with eggs and tiny larvae in it. And I fed them 2:1 sugar:water, which they are guzzling.

I see them bringing pollen in now.

My question is whether or not to go back in and check on them.

If I go in and find a queen cell, then they really were queenless and they're taking care of it.
If I find eggs and brood, then my 'fixes' would have stimulated the old queen to get off her butt.

If I don't go in, then they have a chance to do what they do and do it better because I'm not tearing things up. And chances are, the eggs are enough fix so they'll be fine now if they were queenless.

I Love going in the hives, but that sets them back and I'm afraid of damaging a queen cell, so I'm trying to only go in When Necessary.

SO - I'd like your opinions. I know I CAN go in, but Should I go in or not? It's been one week today [8/16] since I put in the eggs and brood.

Maggiesdad · August 16, 2015, 10:37:33 AM

I would check on them, but I'm a noob and love going into hives too.

If they are at risk, I would want to keep an eye on Wax moths and SHB. If they need another frame of eggs and brood I'd give it to them and if they had empty drawn frames that they weren't covering I pull them and put them in my strong hives to get them laid up. I think it's called management, but it might just be interference, lol.

Maggiesdad · August 16, 2015, 10:42:51 AM

Oh and if they had started a queen cell on the frame you'd given them, then I'd mark my calendar and stay outta there until proper time to check for eggs.
Do you still have drones flying? Some of my hives have started kicking them out...

rookie2531 · August 16, 2015, 11:06:34 AM

Definitely, go in. If you had no eggs or larvae, most likely no queen. I don't know how long you went before you noticed no eggs, but maybe they supercede her and you have a new queen in there that has not mated yet. If the girls are bringing in stores then I would vote on that, otherwise, I would say that a queen less colony with no queen cells are just full of robbers and that hive is worthless. I have had a couple nucs that I was feeding and not inspecting frames, when I did an inspection found that robbers were just taking everything. Queen was gone, but there were bees on the frames. No fighting because they were already beaten.

cao · August 16, 2015, 11:29:10 AM

If you think that they are queenless then I would definitely check on them. If you just go in and check your added frames for a queen cell, it wouldn't disturb them much. If they are queenless then its starting to getting late in the year to raise a queen and have time to raise brood for winter. I wouldn't wait too long.

I don't know about your area, but when I checked on my nucs two weeks ago I noticed that they had little to no pollen in them. Which meant that I didn't see as much brood as I expected. I assume that the queen would slow or stop laying if they don't have the food to raise the new bees. Or the workers getting rid of the eggs after they are laid. The good thing is that I'm seeing them bring in pollen this past week. Hopefully they will be raising more bees soon. I plan on checking on them later today.

I believe that we were in a dearth a couple of weeks ago and we are coming out of it and the fall flow is starting(fingers crossed cause my nucs need to build up for winter). That could be what you are seeing. Hopefully your queen was just taking a break until the workers could find the pollen and nectar to raise more bees.

Hope for the best:

The queen was taking a break during the dearth.
Prepare for the worst:

They are queenless and can't get a laying queen before winter. Then buy a mated queen or combine with a queenright hive.

Good luck.

Rurification · August 16, 2015, 09:19:00 PM

Thanks for the input. Persuasive arguments all.

This hive was not robbed out. I keep a careful eye on the beeyard and stop that immediately. Also, no one has touched the bucket feeder I've had out in the other garden and if there was robbing, it would start there - or the hummingbird feeders.

The possibility of them already having requeened and having a virgin or newly mated queen that hadn't kicked in yet didn't occur to me. Probably because there was a definite roar from these guys and my gut said 'queenless'. I'm learning to listen to my gut.

So - I went in and checked them this evening. They are packing away the pollen and syrup - 4 frames filling up with both. 1 frame of capped brood from the older larvae I gave them last weekend. And 7 beautiful capped queen cells and a bit of capped brood on the other frame I gave them, that was partially drawn, with eggs last Sunday.

SO - I should have a laying queen in....[going to check Michael Bush's bee math page....]

...in 18 - 23 more days. Sometime between Sept 3 and 8.

We still have drones here and it will stay warm for a while. The fall flow has started - I'm seeing yellow stains on the entrances of some of the hives. We have acres of goldenrod and late sumac, plus I'm feeding so hopefully that'll keep drones in the hives until she's mated and laying.

rookie2531 · August 16, 2015, 09:47:06 PM

Glad you got cells from a frame you put in from another hive, if I read it correctly. But What is confusing to me is that if something happened to her, why did they not make cells from her eggs that was laid up to her disappearance?

GSF · August 17, 2015, 07:19:35 AM

They may have rookie, but something happened to the new queen during the eggless time.

chux · August 17, 2015, 09:10:05 AM

I had a colony go queenless last year. I gave them a frame of eggs and young brood twice. If memory serves me, the first time they simply refused to build a queen cell. The second time, the frame had everything from brood to young larvae, to capped brood in it. They actually ripped out all of the brood and eggs. No queen. Point is, sometimes the bees just don't follow the rules.

They may have simply decided not to raise a new queen, soon enough after the old one left or shut down. Or... they new queen may have been eaten by a bird while mating. Or...she may have returned to the wrong hive. That happens too.

Good thing you were on top of it. Great job managing your girls, getting them the help they needed.

AR Beekeeper · August 17, 2015, 11:38:15 AM

Unless you are using excessive smoke or are very rough handling frames, or fail to place them back in the order you took them out, inspecting a colony causes very little disruption. Never worry about demoralizing your colonies, remember that they work for you, and as the boss you are always right.

chux · August 18, 2015, 08:03:20 AM

Quote from: AR Beekeeper on August 17, 2015, 11:38:15 AM
Unless you are using excessive smoke or are very rough handling frames, or fail to place them back in the order you took them out, inspecting a colony causes very little disruption. Never worry about demoralizing your colonies, remember that they work for you, and as the boss you are always right.

When I go into my hives during a good flow, I use very little smoke. The bees are so busy they don't even seem to really care that I am there. Seems to be very little disturbance to them. When there is no flow, I must use more smoke. The girls seem more disturbed by my intrusion. When it is colder, I cause more disruption if I break the seals of propolis and let heat escape. There are many variables. Over-all, I agree with AR Beekeeper. Get in there. Bee careful. Use just enough smoke to keep the girls from getting too excited.