Frames

[orin]

Im currently working on putting together a list of things to buy to get my hives started next spring. I think what im going to do is build my own hive boxes and buy the frames which i noticed frames are not very cheap. Anyone know of some good websites to order from that are not too expensive? Thanks

[GSF]

Mann Lake has free shipping for purchases over $100. Recently they had their deep frames on sale for about 2.40 each if you buy a case. Seems like I remember reading folks posting last year that most bee business will run huge sales around November, and I think free shipping is included.

[OldMech]

I am WAY too cheap to buy frames. it is possible to make them yourself, but it is time consuming. A combination of foundation and foundation-less saves me even more money...  i dont have the ability to make plastic foundation, and am too cheap to buy a two grand machine to make wax foundation...  So I make a LOT of foundation - less frames, and bite the bullet to buy SOME foundation to slip into home made frames.
   http://www.outyard.net/frames.html

[little john]

Here's the simplest method I know of making foundationless frames ...

A good supply of battens are needed - in my case, 10mm thick, 22mm wide, and pre-cut to the lengths required. The top bar is made from 2 lengths of 10mm; the bottom bar can be thinner - around 6-8mm.

Ok - so firstly I set-up a table as shown below - with 2 parallel battens G-cramped to the table top at an appropriate distance apart. The frame (less top bar) is then glued-up with gentle pressure applied from the side (as shown). A groove was pre-cut into (what will be) the underside of the top bar to take popsicle sticks as comb starters. I keep meaning to make a jig to cut that groove, but as I only make a few of these frames from time to time, for now I just use a thin steel cut-off disk in an angle grinder.



Then, when the glue has set, the upper half of the top bar can be glued on, and - although not strictly necessary - I also drill a small hole near the top of the side bar and insert a panel pin there as 'belt and braces'.

Here's some I made a while back when I was 'caught out' without stocks of commercially-made frames. These could be fitted with small screws on the side-bars to make them self-spacing, of course.



But this is where I use this technique most - for when making custom frames.



It really doesn't get any simpler than this: going foundationless makes frame-making very easy indeed ... and cheap !

LJ

[mtnb]

I get mine from Western Bee out of Polson, Mt. But I can drive there in a couple of hours. Woodenware is super cheap there but I hear they get you with shipping.

http://westernbee.com

[orin]

Quick question on foundationless frames...... I will be starting two new hives next spring with packages now if i decide to use frames with no foundation do I need to have atleast one or two with foundation to get them started or can they all be foundationless right off the start?

[little john]

It's by no means essential to have either frames with foundation, or pre-drawn frames - but it's handy to have a couple of either to ensure that straight combs are initially drawn-out.

But - starter strips - either wax, popsicle sticks on edge, or wedge-shaped top bars are usually sufficient. The worst that can happen is a little curvature develops - usually near the side-bars - which can easily be pushed back into alignment.

LJ

[OldMech]

   I have started bees, either from a swarm, split, or cut out with all foundation-less..   In half of them they needed no further guidance than Little John mentions.. in the other half, even with starter strips they start at one corner and go to an opposing corner. If you dont check them often it can be a REAL mess trying to fix that situation.
   So I try to put at least three frames with foundation or drawn comb in, spaced evenly among the foundation-less frames. At the very least, it means that there are only two frames cross drawn and its easier to fix..   Usually I fix it by cutting the comb and aligning it in a foundation-less frame, either by rubber banding it in or by using melted wax to affix it to the top bar.
   The bees will mess up a piece of foundation about as often as they draw cross comb, so fixing is a necessary skill. If I was rich, I would likely use all foundation.. I prefer the black wax coated plastic because its SO EASY to install and care for. Being CHEAP is why I use foundation-less. There is also the advantage of letting the bees draw the comb size they wish, as well as producing the drones they want with the foundation-less.. You can also make cut comb honey, and cut out queen cells or use the cell punch method to make queens.
   It takes a little more determination and care to use "ALL" foundation-less but is certainly possible if you have a little fortitude.

[cao]

I agree with OldMech, it is safer to have a guide when you have a completely empty box.  As you get more experience it is easier to deal with messed up comb.  With someone new to bees, I would always advise to have at least one piece of foundation or better yet drawn comb as a guide.  It is better to be safe then sorry.

[orin]

Thanks guys for this info it helps alot! Im sure ill have many more questions to come as i begin my journey in beekeeping haha thanks again guys

[KeyLargoBees]

This is going to sound a little new age hippie -ish.....but hive placement seems to affect whether bees will draw straight frames. If they are too close to a high level electromagnetic source.....(high run electric motor like an external AC unit or transformer) the combs tend to veer towards the device even it goes across the frames. I have been told that people will douse for ley lines to determine hive placement (but cant speak to that and my scientific mind rebels a little  ) ....just the electromagnetic thing.

Call me crazy and a liar but a friend in Kemah Texas showed me photos of hives he had on opposite sides of his back yard that drew laser straight foundationless combs oriented to a transformer on a power pole during his first year. They refused to  draw along any guides and oriented all comb 90 degrees to the pole... he rotated the hives about 35 degrees to orient the entrances axis to point toward the pole and voila the comb they drew after was perfectly straight and has been for 2 years. Coincidence? Maybe....but with the ways bees navigate  it sort of makes sense they would be sensitive to strong magnetic fields.

[glennj3cub]

My two cents worth. I liked the idea of cutting and eating some cone honey (it looks so good). So I made about half frames of no foundation, every other frame or so. That worked very well. Then I did a super with lots of empty frames. The bees connected cross ways and some cone was very thick. Would tear up pulling it out.
So my advice is to mostly use foundation. Besides, most people do not like having to eat on the wax, they prefer pure clean honey!
Glenn

[mtnb]

Hey KLB, I've heard that too. I've also heard that water ley lines can affect them. My husband is a really good dowser but I read of it too late and he didn't get a chance to dowse before I had to set up the hive. I did set the hive in a place where I know there's an underground stream. I've been impressed with how extremely straight they've drawn comb. lol

[Dallasbeek]

My two cents worth. I liked the idea of cutting and eating some cone honey (it looks so good). So I made about half frames of no foundation, every other frame or so. That worked very well. Then I did a super with lots of empty frames. The bees connected cross ways and some cone was very thick. Would tear up pulling it out.
So my advice is to mostly use foundation. Besides, most people do not like having to eat on the wax, they prefer pure clean honey!
Glenn

You can wind up with honey just as clean from foundationless as from foundation.  If careful, you can extract.  You can crush and strain.  And you save the cost of foundation, plus you are not putting possibly contaminated wax into your hive (the wax used to make foundation comes from somewhere -- possibly from hives that have been treated with all kinds of chemicals). I'd suggest you read what Michael Bush has written on his website, if you haven't already done so, before making up your mind.  And there are all kinds of reasons bees make wonky comb.  Some bees just seem to like messing with the beekeeper's mind, maybe.

[Wombat2]

Mann Lake has free shipping for purchases over $100. Recently they had their deep frames on sale for about 2.40 each if you buy a case. Seems like I remember reading folks posting last year that most bee business will run huge sales around November, and I think free shipping is included.

I look at the catalogues of the equipment and prices available in the States and am green with envy but frames at that price??? we pay $AU1.10 -$AU1.40 in boxes of 100 That $US2.40 is $AU3.30 ouch.

[chux]

I ordered my foundationless frames from Kelley Bee Supply. They are as cheap as anybody, and you don't have to put a guide in place. My bees have built well on them, for the most part. As to whether you want to go foundationless or not...I think that really depends on you. Are you going to be nervous? Are you going to take the time to go out there and get in the hive every few days, to start with, to make sure that they are building straight? When they draw crooked, are you going to be comfortable fixing it? Are you going to be careful in the handling of new comb frames, so that you don't turn it the wrong way and break the comb?

If you want to give it a try, I would suggest putting 5 frames of foundation in each hive to start. Put them all on one side, then put foundationless on the other side. See where the bees start building. Watch them fill the entire box. By then, you'll probably know whether foundationless is for you.

Oh, I build my own boxes too. But I buy frames. Maybe you could find a local commercial beek who is getting ready to order frames. Ask him to add your order to his. They get a really good discount price for ordering in bulk. Or maybe a local bee club is going in together to buy in bulk. Get in on that.
 

[GSF]

Hey David, I may have failed to mention that these were wax coated plastic foundation with wooden frames. Don't know if that makes any difference or not.

[Wombat2]

Hey David, I may have failed to mention that these were wax coated plastic foundation with wooden frames. Don't know if that makes any difference or not.

Probably and I'm talking about component parts that require assembly, wiring and foundation fixing.

[Eric Bosworth]

I am WAY too cheap to buy frames. it is possible to make them yourself, but it is time consuming. A combination of foundation and foundation-less saves me even more money...  i dont have the ability to make plastic foundation, and am too cheap to buy a two grand machine to make wax foundation...  So I make a LOT of foundation - less frames, and bite the bullet to buy SOME foundation to slip into home made frames.
   http://www.outyard.net/frames.html

I use a slight modification to this method to make frames. I don't use any foundation. Seems like a waste of money to me. My method, uses a router and routing table to cut the comb guides. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KZM2AMY?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00
That works great for making 1.25" frames with 3/4" boards. I zip them through the router and then zip them off on the table saw. For 1.375" frames I use rough cut lumber from the local saw mill... Well at the moment I have a bunch of lumber from logs my father had cut with a portable saw mill. The problem there is the thickness is just a hare two wide that if I don't get it perfect it leaves some of the edge. I really need a planer so I can trim down the sides. That would also help with slivers. As far as end bars, I have a 1.375"X10"X8' that I had cut with the portable saw mill. I cut my own 1.25" end bars. For bottom boards I have been cutting up stickers from the pile cut by the sawmill.

I have been using larch mostly because we had a lot of tall straight larch trees on our property. It is rot resistant, not all that important for frames but for boxes it is great. When I run out of lumber I am going to cut down some more trees and have him come back with the sawmill. It is quite a bit of work but it is not that bad and I can have 7/8" boards cut from the start to save me time making frames. I just wish I had thought of that to begin with. I thought about the end bars for 1.375" but not 1.25" Now I know for the future.

[OldMech]

Sounds like a good deal. i may have to have some of my wood cut. How long do you let it dry before you use it?