Some Advice Needed

PhilK · January 09, 2016, 01:52:07 AM

Hey all,

About 4 weeks ago we placed supers on our two hives and then we were away for holidays etc. Today my mate and I opened the hives for the first time since then to see how they are going.

Hive B's super was not quite full, but they're putting a good effort in. Hive A is going absolutely gang busters and will need to be harvested soon (our first harvest!)

My question pertains to some worrying happenings we noticed in the brood boxes of both hives (Hive A much worse than Hive B). I assume it is a space issue, but hanging off the bottom bars of many frames were large sections of comb with brood and/or honey.. Some were connected to the floor of the hive so when we picked them up it was quite a mess. Some of the honey comb we sliced off and put into a box, but I wasn't sure what to do with the brood?

I assume it is not good to have this comb hanging off the bottom bars like that, so my question is what do we do with the comb that is already there? And how do we prevent this issue from happening? Do we need to give them a second brood box? Split a hive into two hives?

Confused! This beekeeping stuff is fun but there is a lot to learn! Felt like a bit of a rookie today!

rwlaw · January 09, 2016, 08:06:36 AM

Usually there's frames with a row of drone brood on the bottom of the frames, maybe 2 cells in height extending downward. So if they're filling that void that much comb, yes, they probably are crowded. You must have some swarm resistant bees as I've never seen it (swarms have been issued before that's happened). What's your hive's configuration and sizes?

Acebird · January 09, 2016, 09:03:10 AM

Quote from: PhilK on January 09, 2016, 01:52:07 AM
Some were connected to the floor of the hive so when we picked them up it was quite a mess.

Is there a 3/4 in space or better between the bottom of the frame and the floor of the hive? Were there any queen cells between the frames top and bottom?

superbee · January 09, 2016, 02:45:07 PM

I think rwlaw has a good point about the swarm issue and I would consider splitting the hive as once they get that packed they get the idea its time to swarm. Managing the amount of space is critical to health bees.

KeyLargoBees · January 10, 2016, 09:39:29 AM

It all depends on what tolerances the box was built to. I have one NUC hive that that I bought last year when my original package bees were struggling which came in a box with WAY too much room between the frames and screened bottom boards and the bees had built 2-3 rows of cells along the frame bottoms and even attached them in places so when I pulled some frames to help my struggling package it was a mess...I have never gotten around to fixing the bee space issue and its only used as a temporary box on swarm/cutouts so its not a big deal. Permanent hives built with improper bee space in whatever dimension would be prone to what you are describing to and since they woudl have longer to work the problem would be magnified probably....wherever there is too much space they start to build.....and then they attach the comb and leave crawl spaces...might be what you are seeing.

Colobee · January 10, 2016, 01:26:03 PM

The design of a standard Langstroth hive allows for 3/4 in between the bottom of the frames and the top of the bottom board. When using the designed frames, this only leaves that 3/4" to build additional comb beneath. Below the supers, 3/4 inch doesn't seem to violate bee space (more than 3/8 inch) as much as above. I've often seen some "ladder comb" built from the bottom board to the lowest frames. Ladder comb is also frequently encountered between supers, and often this is drone brood/comb. Between supers it is indicative of excess spacing .

There is usually such a small amount of usable space that the bees only attach a few "ladders", and the disruption from inspection is readily repaired. On the other hand, some hives seem to want a "solid" wall of comb between supers, as if they prefer one giant continuous frame. It's an unfortunate occurrence - there is often some disruption and loss of brood between frames when inspecting or working a hive. If you are using foundationless, the damage might be extensive ( not sure - I've rarely used foundationless). If you are using some other configuration, you may want to take this thinking into account. Do your best to observe proper beespace but don't be surprised if the bees ignore our "rules".

PhilK · January 10, 2016, 07:37:17 PM

Thanks for the replies!

Four frames from the stronger hive and two from the weaker had what I described above. The extra combs hanging off the bottom of the frames did seem to have a lot of drone cells.

We bought our bottom boxes from an old guy selling hives - the landing boards and bottom boxes are fused together. Not sure what the space is between the landing board and the bottom of the frames.

Sounds like space is out prime issue and I should be putting another brood box on? We could probably get away with splitting the stronger hive so have decided to buy extra box/landing board/lid etc

PhilK · January 11, 2016, 07:01:50 PM

Thanks again for all the replies they have been good, but I'm still not sure what to do with all that comb hanging off the bottom of my frames? Do I remove it? It has brood so I feel bad, but I feel like it's necessary to tidy the hive up and stop things getting out of hand!

Colobee · January 11, 2016, 07:45:00 PM

If the comb is between supers, the bees will just rebuild it until you address the excess space. Since you already have bees in the boxes, that will be difficult. Some supers are built with the frame ledge short, so the frames are flush with the top of the super. Likewise, some split the difference, and some are deeper - leaving the frames (bottoms) flush with the bottom of the super. Mismatched supers may lead to the comb you describe, as can the buildup of propolis between super boxes.

When you say "...all that comb", how much (in inches, below the frame) are you referring to? With proper bee space it shouldn't be more than a row or two of comb.

I've done both - removed the comb and left it. It depends on if you can figure out WHY they are building "all that comb", and do something about it.

Kathyp · January 11, 2016, 08:42:27 PM

They need to draw drone comb and if you are using foundation that restricts the size of the cells, they'll build it where they can find space. Often they build it wherever anyway!

I agree that if your boxes are so full, you may want to consider splitting. especially if you are seeing queen cells anywhere, but hives that full can be split before you have a problem.

If you split, and there are queen cells in the hives, split by taking the old queen away. Leave the cells in the old box. If you are just splitting for size and there are no queen cells, you don't need to worry about where the queen is as long as you put eggs in both boxes. The one without a queen will immediately start making one. the other will carry on.

PhilK · January 11, 2016, 10:10:54 PM

Quote from: Colobee on January 11, 2016, 07:45:00 PM
If the comb is between supers, the bees will just rebuild it until you address the excess space. Since you already have bees in the boxes, that will be difficult. Some supers are built with the frame ledge short, so the frames are flush with the top of the super. Likewise, some split the difference, and some are deeper - leaving the frames (bottoms) flush with the bottom of the super. Mismatched supers may lead to the comb you describe, as can the buildup of propolis between super boxes.

When you say "...all that comb", how much (in inches, below the frame) are you referring to? With proper bee space it shouldn't be more than a row or two of comb.

I've done both - removed the comb and left it. It depends on if you can figure out WHY they are building "all that comb", and do something about it.

The comb is between the bottom board and the bottom of the brood combs, not between supers. But I imagine this is the same problem you were descreibing anyway!

It is only 2-3 cells in depth. It is on about 3-4 frames.

I haven't seen any queen cells being made yet, but we are considering a split - we just don't have the gear so we need to get some ASAP!

Will harvesting the honey out of the super help with space? It's pretty much full.

PhilK · January 17, 2016, 09:20:17 PM

So yesterday we extracted, and for the first time I had a frame from the super and a frame from the brood box side by side. I think I found the problem - it looks like the frames from the brood box are shallower than the frames from the super! We ordered 10 deeps with our brood box, and 10 deeps with our super... but I assume they got mixed up and we got given mediums! They should be the same in both super and brood box if we are using 2 deep bodies right?

How do I remedy this? I assume they need to be replaced with deeps but at the moment they are full of brood, so how do I change them over?

Cheers!

cao · January 17, 2016, 10:30:09 PM

Quote from: PhilK on January 17, 2016, 09:20:17 PM
How do I remedy this? I assume they need to be replaced with deeps but at the moment they are full of brood, so how do I change them over?

If there are any frames without brood(typically the outside frames), you can remove them and insert a new frame or two in the middle of the brood nest. Repeat anytime you find any other frames without brood.

Or if you are using a queen excluder, you can just move some of the frames above the queen excluder. After the brood hatches the bees will use the for honey storage and you can remove them. You need to make sure the queen is not on any of the frames that you move.

How much of a difference are the frames? Deep frames are about 3" taller than medium frames.

Colobee · January 18, 2016, 01:01:21 AM

There are differing opinions on placing foundation directly into the middle of the brood nest. I'm of the opinion that it rarely, if ever, should, or needs to be done. Around here, placing a couple frames of foundation into the middle of a brood nest would be like playing Russian Roulette with the bees - with 3 live rounds instead of one.The same thing can be accomplished by working the outside edges of the broodnest, with less disruption.

Our weather hardly ever provides ideal conditions for splitting up the brood nest with foundation, except for perhaps a few months in the middle of summer. To do so can create two small brood nests less capable of covering & warming brood in the event of a cold snap. Leave the core of the broodnest intact and there is generally one less thing to be concerned about.

You can accomplish the same thing by gradually moving those same frames outward ( or upward) and moving the foundation gradually inward. Add new comb only to the outer edges of the brood nest. Foundation could be substituted, as long as it starts out within a frame or two of the outside of the box. I would much rather swap the outer-most frames of brood for adjacent (or other) empty drawn comb, to give the queen more laying space. This can also accomplish moving desired (or undesirable) frames out of the brood nest/chamber.

With a strong hive, moving frames that need to be cleared, either gradually towards the outside, or (centrally) up above a queen excluder are both methods that should get you where you want to be. Either & how is dependent on your weather and current or upcoming flows. Foundation will only be drawn into comb when there is a good flow or supplemental feed is being provided.

& now you'll likely hear from the "I did/do it all the time" folks...

PhilK · January 18, 2016, 08:49:16 AM

Thanks for the replies!

We went into the hives today - since Saturday (extraction day) they have already cleaned up all the sticky comb and are repairing it, and the honey frames we left behind because they weren't full enough are a lot fuller already, so I think there is a flow on!

At the moment the weather is between 25 and 30?C so shouldn't have any problems with keeping the brood warm. There were a mix of full depth and shorter frames in the brood box - it was really strange, but it explains why they have been building so much comb on the bottoms of those shorter frames (a lot of appeared to be drone comb)

We ended up sort of 'checker boarding' the brood box with frames in Hive A - two of them had no foundation so put them toward the outside, and the others were mostly empty comb from the supers. I figured because it's warm they should be OK, and there will be plenty of space for the queen to lay. Hive B didn't have as many of the shorter frames so we only had to replace a couple. I'll wait until the brood from the medium frames (now in the super) hatches out and the bees fill them with honey then I'll extract them, get rid of them, and replace them with deeps.

Inspection seemed good - no swarm cells seen, more drones than usual but figure this is because of the extra comb they've been making. Didn't see the queen in either hive so here's hoping we didn't put her in the super by accident!

Colobee · January 18, 2016, 11:57:56 AM

Good! 'Glad to hear it. I hope the supplier has remedied that for you. They should send you replacement deep frames. Those medium frames can be used in a medium honey super, once you get them cleared out.

As I said - there are differing opinions on inserting foundation into the brood nest. I've always succeeded by "working" the sides. It is good to understand the function of the brood nest before meddling with it. It is the warm core "heart" of the hive, and without a reasonable understanding it should generally be left mostly intact. With understanding and experience, there are some exceptions. A large strong brood nest can be divided into multiple splits with proper consideration.

Checker boarding is a supering technique, meant to encourage honey storage. Walt ( the "inventor") never intended for it to be applied to the brood nest. I recall an incident where a new beekeeper had "checker boarded" her broodnest, in hopes that it would encourage rapid colony expansion. In her case ( a very cold climate) she mostly succeeded in spreading the brood nest so thin that it was incapable of keeping most of the brood warm enough to survive. IIRC, she was able to reverse the damage in time to salvage the hive.

Your warm climate & season should give you the opportunity to shuffle those short frames out without much danger. We're just beginning to see "pre-spring" like conditions, here.

Good luck!

Bret Charlton · January 18, 2016, 07:32:14 PM

Quote from: PhilK on January 17, 2016, 09:20:17 PM
So yesterday we extracted, and for the first time I had a frame from the super and a frame from the brood box side by side. I think I found the problem - it looks like the frames from the brood box are shallower than the frames from the super!

If your frames from the brood box are shallower than the deep super then how can 2 or 3 cells on the bottom frame be attached to the bottom board in your brood box?

You may have a problem with a few (most) frames not being the right size but you have not found the problem you described earlier.

PhilK · January 19, 2016, 01:34:37 AM

Quote from: Bret Charlton on January 18, 2016, 07:32:14 PMIf your frames from the brood box are shallower than the deep super then how can 2 or 3 cells on the bottom frame be attached to the bottom board in your brood box?

You may have a problem with a few (most) frames not being the right size but you have not found the problem you described earlier.

We had a mix of full deep frames and shallower frames in the brood box. The shallower frames were all having comb built on the bottom bar of them, and some of this comb extended to the bottom board. The full deep frames had no comb built along their bottom bars.

Bret Charlton · January 20, 2016, 08:17:16 PM

So it wasn't drone comb?

I was in agreement with some others that it was drone comb until the mix-match of frames came up .... even after that I thought it would probably still be drone comb (thinking the deep frames were the ones with comb on them).

Thanks for clearing up my confused mind.

cao · January 20, 2016, 09:18:00 PM

I hope you got things straightened out PhilK.

And by the way, welcome Bret Charlton to the forum.