Overwintering Nucs: The Mystery, and the Glory

[KPF]

I'm a first year beek fascinated and confused by "the nuc." The thing that perplexes me is how does an itty bitty mini hive of 5 frames make it through a cold winter? On the one hand, I'm thinking it's tough enough for bees to overwinter in a regular hive with 2-3 hive bodies. How can the queen stay warm in a nuc?

So, does anyone have any resources or guidance on  how to successfully overwinter a nuc? When should the nuc be started? What happens if you start a nuc in summer and  it expands like gangbusters? How big should it be going into winter? How do you winterize them? Can one nuc outside survive on its own?

[KeyLargoBees]

Winter is an alien concept to me...but I am sure someone has some advice on this :-)

[tjc1]

These are the same questions that I have always had about overwintering nucs - and being from Plymouth MA, not far from KPF, winter does weigh on my mind, unlike Keylargobees! I hope someone can shed some light...

[little john]

Much depends on how many nucs you're talking about. If you've only got a few, then a well-proven method is to place two nuc boxes side-by-side over an established colony in 10-frame boxes. That way the warmth rising up from below helps to keep the nucs warm.

Another technique I've seen used, is to keep nucs indoors with short entrance pipes leading to the outside - with good results being reported.



In 1962 (which I'm guessing is a bit before your time) a guy called Bobby Darin had a hit with the song, "Multiplication - it's the name of the game". And for someone with a LOT of nucs to over-winter this is a far more practicable approach to solving the warmth problem.

A 5-frame colony on it's own may well be at some risk, but not so a 10-frame colony. A 20-frame colony certainly isn't at any risk at all - and so - four 5-frame colonies can simply be placed tightly together, under one (highly insulated) roof, thusly:



The above are Long Hives, internally divided into four 5-frame nucs by sheets of 3mm polycarbonate, thus creating more-or-less the same warmth as that generated by a 20-frame colony.
Those two particular Long Hives in close proximity are part of a trial being conducted to see if 8 nucs can live closely together without excessive drifting. If successful - and it's looking good so far - then several 8-nuc set-ups will be constructed, with each nuc being given it's own discrete box (rather than dividing a larger box), but still under a common roof/ feeder shell etc.

There is a guy in Manitoba who over-winters 2-frame nucs, using heating cables:
http://mbbeekeeping.com/wintering-2-frame-nucs-in-manitoba/
I did consider something similar - but I really want to stick to the 5-frame format - which shouldn't require auxilliary heating in my particular location.

LJ

[Colobee]

I've been at it for quite some time and the concept was also a bit hard to digest.  This is my first time trying winter nucs, so I just ran a 2 nuc experiment, with a couple "lesser" queens. I have them in a side by side "5 over 5" medium frame configuration. The bottom box is a divided 10 frame box and the second story are two half boxes.  They share the warmth - both have moved towards the shared "middle" wall of the unit. The only insulation is 1/2" in the outer cover. I've been feeding them sugar bricks and one side has been taking them down while the other hasn't, but both looked pretty good last week.

They have made it this far, and it is beginning to look like a successful attempt. That shouldn't be that much of a surprise, given the successes seen elsewhere in the country. Another month or two and it will appear to have worked, even here in cold & snowy Colorado. If so, I'll be sending 6-10 or so  into next winter.

[Acebird]

The best advice I can give is to seek a Michael Palmer video or visit Michael Bush's site.  I don't do it personally but what I gather is conserving heat with insulation and ganging nucs together is the key.  The colony must produce enough heat to keep the core warm.  If you stack colonies together it is if they were one.  They will attract each other and conserve heat like snuggling with your honey in a sleeping bag.

[KPF]

Thank you, all. Very helpful. Two of my packages failed this year and I'm on a mission to use northern queens and nucs to build a sustainable apiary. How sustainable I can be with about 3-4 hives is an open question, but I'd rather hold the dream until reality proves me wrong.

I've watched a bunch of Michael Bush and Michael Palmer videos and they are awesome, but not without some risk for a newbee. One of Michael Palmer's videos talked about adding multiple supers on at one time to stay ahead of the bees. I mentioned this on my local board and I was met with confusion and consternation. It wasn't until I read one of George Imirie's pink sheets that I figured out what Michael Palmer probably meant. (I say probably, as I don't  presume to ascribe to him opinions he may not hold and I may have misinterpreted what he said). The lightbulb that went off was, add boxes that have DRAWN comb, not foundation. A key little point that either he didn't mention or was probably obvious to the audience he was speaking to or I just plain missed in the video. As a commercial beek Palmer has access to tons and tons of drawn comb but for a newbee that has none that one piece of information was crucial.  These little knowledge bombs happen a lot in beekeeping (at least for me). You have an assumption based on incomplete information and then, bam, you come across something that puts it all into perspective.

The pictures of Michael Palmer's hives snowbound in frigid Vermont near the Canadian border are a never-ending source of hope and optimism as I sit here in January with no hives and a lot of equipment ready for spring.

[Acebird]

add boxes that have DRAWN comb, not foundation.

Most certainly.  Usually a newbie would not be attempting overwintered nucs and after a couple of years you would already know that you would not pile on boxes of foundation.

[gww]

kpf

These little knowledge bombs happen a lot in beekeeping (at least for me). You have an assumption based on incomplete information and then, bam, you come across something that puts it all into perspective.

I couldn't agree more.  In my case the little bomb goes off and I have enlightenment until a differrent little bomb goes off and I forget about the first one that went off and have to remember all over again and usually a bit late.  Allot to keep in mind when you are new and are not sure of exactly what you are seeing when looking.

Cheers
gww

[KPF]

kpf

These little knowledge bombs happen a lot in beekeeping (at least for me). You have an assumption based on incomplete information and then, bam, you come across something that puts it all into perspective.

I couldn't agree more.  In my case the little bomb goes off and I have enlightenment until a differrent little bomb goes off and I forget about the first one that went off and have to remember all over again and usually a bit late.  Allot to keep in mind when you are new and are not sure of exactly what you are seeing when looking.

Cheers
gww

I particularly like the mutually assured destruction bombs. That's when the opinion of one master beek directly contradicts the opinion of another master beek. Any knowledge in my head evaporates along with a few neurons. Usually takes me a week or so to recover. I wander around the house like the robot on Lost in Space, waving my arms and mumbling. Is beekeeping good for the soul? Yes. Is it good for your mind? Definitely not.
 

[Colobee]

 Just because two beeks do things differently doesn't mean either way is "wrong". Bees are very adaptive. Chances are there are at least 5 "right" ways to do a lot of things. 

[little john]

I think you've expressed that very well ...

So often we witness diametrically opposed arguments between seasoned beekeepers becoming heated, even acrimonious.

I think the trick is to find a hive type and a style of beekeeping which suits YOU, and then just get on with keeping bees - and sod the 'experts' who will zealously tell you how you 'should' be keeping bees.

Someone on here said a short while ago, "if it works, it works - and that's good enough" - or words to that effect. And I thing there's a lot to be said for adopting that philosophy. Opposing views will no doubt be confusing for beginners, but as you say - bees are very adaptable creatures. They've had to be, to have survived for so long ... despite beekeepers.

LJ

[KPF]

I think you've expressed that very well ...

So often we witness diametrically opposed arguments between seasoned beekeepers becoming heated, even acrimonious.

I think the trick is to find a hive type and a style of beekeeping which suits YOU, and then just get on with keeping bees - and sod the 'experts' who will zealously tell you how you 'should' be keeping bees.

Someone on here said a short while ago, "if it works, it works - and that's good enough" - or words to that effect. And I thing there's a lot to be said for adopting that philosophy. Opposing views will no doubt be confusing for beginners, but as you say - bees are very adaptable creatures. They've had to be, to have survived for so long ... despite beekeepers.

LJ

It's taken me about a year to figure this out. My current rule of thumb is, if I don't know what to do, and one master beekeeper tells me to do it, I do it and don't obsess over it. I just put the topic in a mental tickler file of things to keep an eye on. Classic example. Screened bottom boards or solid? One guy said he likes solid, esp in spring as brood is gearing up to keep the wee bee baby brood warm and toasty. Another likes screened because of increased ventilation and reduction in moisture, esp in winter.  The good news is, I have both. Yay! I'm both right and wrong at the same time. The most important lesson I've learned is that if you're a beginner talking to a master beekeeper, it's critical to understand context, as sometimes  "obvious" things are left out or not stated or implied. It's impossible for any master beekeeper to enumerate all exceptions to the the rule or all permutations of an issue in a brief conversation or even a short lecture. And as a beginner it's easy to misinterpret direction because you just don't have the context to know exactly what the master beek is talking about.   It's also easy to be swayed by beeks who confuse correlation with causation. "I put decals of pink ponies on my hive and had a great harvest. You should put pink ponies on your beehive, too!" Then I spend a week trying to find pink pony decals.

[Michael Bush]

>The lightbulb that went off was, add boxes that have DRAWN comb, not foundation. A key little point that either he didn't mention or was probably obvious to the audience he was speaking to or I just plain missed in the video. As a commercial beek Palmer has access to tons and tons of drawn comb but for a newbee that has none that one piece of information was crucial.

Yes, when you have a lot of hives you may make the assumption that supers are full of drawn comb.  Whenever the topic of a queen excluder comes up, it's usually a new beekeeper with no drawn comb and all these experienced beekeepers who like an excluder (many don't) act like it's easy to get the bees to work through an excluder.  Not if you only have foundation...

Also there is locality.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslocality.htm

"In my earlier beekeeping years I was often sorely puzzled at the diametrically opposite views often expressed by the different correspondents for the bee journals. In extension of that state of mind I may say that at that time I did not dream of the wonderful differences of locality in its relation to the management of bees. I saw, measured weighted, compared, and considered all things apicutlural by the standard of my own home--Genesee County, Michigan. It was not until I had seen the fields of New York white with buckwheat, admired the luxuriance of sweet-clover growth in the suburbs of Chicago, followed fo r miles the great irrigating ditches of Colorado, where they give lift to the royal purple of the alfalfa bloom, and climbed mountains in California, pulling myself up by grasping the sagebrush, that I fully realized the great amount of apicultural meaning stored up in that one little word--locality." --W.Z. Hutchinson, Advanced Bee Culture

[KPF]

>The lightbulb that went off was, add boxes that have DRAWN comb, not foundation. A key little point that either he didn't mention or was probably obvious to the audience he was speaking to or I just plain missed in the video. As a commercial beek Palmer has access to tons and tons of drawn comb but for a newbee that has none that one piece of information was crucial.

Yes, when you have a lot of hives you may make the assumption that supers are full of drawn comb.  Whenever the topic of a queen excluder comes up, it's usually a new beekeeper with no drawn comb and all these experienced beekeepers who like an excluder (many don't) act like it's easy to get the bees to work through an excluder.  Not if you only have foundation...

Also there is locality.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslocality.htm

"In my earlier beekeeping years I was often sorely puzzled at the diametrically opposite views often expressed by the different correspondents for the bee journals. In extension of that state of mind I may say that at that time I did not dream of the wonderful differences of locality in its relation to the management of bees. I saw, measured weighted, compared, and considered all things apicutlural by the standard of my own home--Genesee County, Michigan. It was not until I had seen the fields of New York white with buckwheat, admired the luxuriance of sweet-clover growth in the suburbs of Chicago, followed fo r miles the great irrigating ditches of Colorado, where they give lift to the royal purple of the alfalfa bloom, and climbed mountains in California, pulling myself up by grasping the sagebrush, that I fully realized the great amount of apicultural meaning stored up in that one little word--locality." --W.Z. Hutchinson, Advanced Bee Culture

Great quote. Underneath that quote on your website is your example about local variations in moisture conditions.  I spent a Saturday morning researching condensation and the best method of moisture control. (I was trying to choose between cedar chips and inner cover insulation.) I forget the details but the short of it is that temperature at the inner cover is key to whether water condenses or not, and that under certain conditions just raising the temperature at the inner cover a few degrees above the dewpoint can (theoretically) reduce risk of condensation.  I decided to go for insulating the inner cover by putting 2-inch styrofoam on top of the inner cover rather than the cedar chip method. That method calls for placing a screened box full of cedar chips between the top hive body and the inner cover. That just increases the distance between the hive and the inner cover, making the inner cover colder and (again, theoretically, according to my amateur calculations) increasing risk of condensation. (I also found random sources that showed significant variation in humidity among hives in the same location (ie, right next to each other.  If I recall correctly it was research done by a beek in Montana or Minnesota, I think.) 

The point of this little foray into the physics of condensation is that I think local variation can be VERY local, not only on a state or town level, but also on a hive level. Which explains a lot about why there is a rich diversity of opinions on best practices.  That's my theory, at least.

[Michael Bush]

Conditions especially vary in the mountains where a few miles makes several thousand feet difference in altitude.  Things can be much more "local" than you imagine sometimes.

[D Coates]

I overwinter nucs every year since my 2nd year.  Personally I try to get the nuc up to 10 drawn frames by Sept. then treat for mites and feed them syrup heavily after that.  I don't worry about insulation.  If they've got enough food and a large enough population they are the insulation.  Sometimes my 10 frames nucs do too well and end up as 15 frame nucs (5 stacked 3 high).  Other times they don't have enough time and they don't get to 10 fully drawn frames.  For those I condense the hive into a 5 frame nuc.  Currently I'm overwintering 5's, 10's and 15 frame nucs.  I fed them all heavy with syrup and as of the last warm spell a week ago all 15 of them are alive and well.  I prefer 10 frame nucs because they've got more space to store extra stores and move up.  They are truly ready for moving into double deeps and producing honey for you that year.  15 frame nucs can get swarmy if they come through winter really strong.  They are sometimes perfect for splitting and requeening to get 2 hives that can get you honey that year.  No hard fast rule there, just beekeepers intuition.  The 5 frame nucs that survive (+/-70%) can be move into a double deep with drawn frames for production that year too.

Any beekeeper should always have nucs and lots of them.  They give you ALL types resources (queens, bee's, larva in many stages, drawn comb, honey, etc.) to help your production hives, "free" replacement hives for overwinter losses, and make you a better beekeeper.

[little john]

Ok, so we've done Context and Location, and following that very useful post by D.Coates, perhaps we should now take a look at Terminology.

In Britain, we don't do packages - we sell bees either by the colony, or more usually as Nucs. If someone posts an advert offering Nucs for sale, then the purchaser can reasonably expect 5 standard (British National) deep frames of bees and some stores. Such deep frames are 14" x 9" overall, excluding lugs, so a little smaller than the Langstroth equivalent. If the Nucs being offered are in any way different, then the vendor would be expected to state so, (say): 6-frame Nucs; 5-frame Nuc on 14x12's; 5-frame Nuc on 17" Top Bars to suit KTBH, and so on ...  Nucs on shallow frames (6" deep) are pretty-much unheard of (I've never seen any offered for sale).

Now a standard British National beehive brood box (or 'deep') contains 11 frames, and one brood box is considered by many as being a 'normal sized' colony, so the concept of a '10-frame Nuc' is just a little weird, and a '15-frame Nuc' would be the equivalent of a very strong colony, and certainly that expression would be viewed (over here) as an oxymoron.

But such views would be very different where monster-sized colonies (by our standards) are the norm. And so use of terminology is yet another area where misunderstandings can occur when posting without either qualifying exactly what we mean, or when not appreciating that such terms are interpreted elsewhere, in very different ways.

So - what does 'a Nuc' mean to you ?

LJ

[Acebird]

So - what does 'a Nuc' mean to you ?

The term is used loosely over here among beekeepers as a shortened version of nucleus (small colony).  A small colony is a grayish term which could be 5 to 15 frames.  What is important is the term used for sales.  If you are selling a "nuc" it is usually 4 or 5 deep Lang frames.  It has become more popular to sell medium frames now and that can be 5 to 8 frames.  Of course some people sell established colonies and they might use the term "nuc" loosely again but these are private sales among beekeepers and not going through any distribution company.

[D Coates]

To me a true nuc is a 5 frame deep "mini" colony.  By the same token a hive is a nuc in my eyes until it's put into double deeps (20 total, deep frames).  My 10 and 15 frame nucs are not true nucs by the standard definition but that's how I treat them, and that's the type of equipment I keep them in.  http://www.beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=27006.0  I leave the bottoms off the ones I stack to make 10 and 15 frame nucs.