Difficult apiary site

[omnimirage]

I offered to look after the hives of a family friend who was an active apiarist in exchange for honey, many months after other commitments prevented him from maintaining his hives. The hives are truly in a terrible, mismanaged state, making it difficult to do basic maintenance.

The other day, I opened up a hive to find all the frames full of honey and rather locked in with propolis. The hive was four deep, and the supers were quite difficult to undo. They are also particularly heavy; I can't lift them alone. After lifting two supers, I could tell that the bees would get aggressive if I went any deeper. Despite not knowing exactly what to look for, I figured it was important to check up on the brood chamber, especially since I wanted to ensure that there weren?t any queen cells or signs of disease/unhealthiness. How important is it for me to check every super, including the brood chamber? What should I be checking for?

When I went to take off the third super, the hive moved and split slightly at the bottom with many aggressive bees coming out of the gap. The split was down at the brood chamber and on the board. It was difficult to close off, and I had to flee afterwards. There were many aggressive, leering bees in the area for some time, making it troublesome to check nearby bee hives.
I then checked a hive that was isolated from the others. This one was much more peaceful: fairly neglected, but not quite as much. I managed to take some photos of it:

http://imgur.com/a/HIsbZ

This hive is five deep, with one shallow depth super. The last couple of photos were of some comb that was crammed in where the hivetool was in the second picture. The supers were unable to be stacked on top of each other due to this massive piece of honeycomb hanging off it. It had a bit of honey in it, but it was quite disfigured and large, and I couldn't fit it in well anywhere. Although I wasn?t sure of what to do with it, it had signs of many drones growing in it so I decided to discard it. I later saw it had some larvae, but it was too late to take it back to the hive.

I extracted all the honey from one of the supers, and cleaned up all the wax and honey. I didn't check deeper in the hive and I didn't have time to check the rest of the hives. Besides, the bees from the aggressive hive were still attacking us a good fifty meters off. What should I do if they're too aggressive to be able to easily do such work?

Other times working the site, I've found the supers to be stuck together significantly. I've only gotten to one of their brood chambers once and when it happened, a large piece of mangled comb tore apart as I lifted the super, causing the bees to become incredibly aggressive. I needed to vacate the area but couldn't easily put the super back on as the comb was torn in multiple places. What should I do when it's difficult to open the supers and check what's going on? Should I just keep opening them to scrape off all the mangled stuff and what not, until they're in better order?

I'm not sure what my general objective should be for these hives now. I was under the impression that I should try to install a queen excluder, so that future honey I extract won't come in dark, disfigured comb like shown, but what I learned from posting last is that a queen excluder may be even more detrimental to me now. If I don't use queen excluders, what else can I do to prevent the comb from going dark and unappetizing?

[PhilK]

G'day mate I can't answer a lot of your questions as I am only starting out as a beekeeper myself, but I think obtaining a placid queen and re-queening the aggressive hives would be a good idea.

Whereabouts in Australia are you? There's a few Aussie beekeepers here and maybe someone could give you a hand? If you're around my area I'd be happy to help out too

[yantabulla]

Good on you for taking them on. 

I agree they are mismanaged & neglected.

It is very important for you to check the brood chamber regularly.

I cannot give you all the information in this post.

I would suggest you start here http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/agriculture/livestock/honey-bees/pests-diseases

The only way to sort them out is to pull out each frame keep the straight ones & remove the crooked ones or burr comb when the frames are missing. 

Be careful pulling these big hives apart on a hot humid day if you have small hive beetle. 

They will be slimed in days if large numbers of eggs hatch. 

One trick to deal with the aggressiveness. 

I am hoping you are using smoke.

Put the whole hive on a furniture removal trolley or similar and take it as far away as you can.  50 to 100 metres if possible.

Leave a few empty boxes in the original location. 

Go and have a cup of tea or a few beers.

The cranky field bees will go back to the original location and you will be left with a smaller more docile bunch of bees to deal with.

Once the hive is sorted out move it back to the original location.

I recommend queen excluders but I don't want to get into the whole for and against discussion about them.

Look at requeening before winter.

Good luck

[little john]

Well, you've got yourself one helluva job there ...

One positive aspect about it though, is that your site is capable of bringing-in a good harvest, so it'll be well-worth the hassle of sorting that lot out.

A couple of observations: do those frames have bottom bars ? If they have - do they have a regular beespace beneath them ? The reason I ask is that there must be a reason why just about every frame top-bar in the photographs has a comb stuck onto it from above. I think that issue would be worth sorting-out fairly early on.

The second observation is that the box top edges appear to have an 'upstand' attached to them on each of the narrow sides. I've never seen those before, and they will interfere with how boxes are normally separated. With those in place, the upper box can only be slid sideways, rather than 'rotated' on and off.

I guess you must be coming towards the end of the season over there ? If so, I really wouldn't worry too much about that very dark honey, as you'll no doubt want to be leaving some honey behind for winter stores - so you might as well let them keep the dark stuff.

It's reasonable to expect some aggression from the bees - after all, you are nicking the results of their labours, and (from their point-of-view) prejudicing their survival. However, if the 'following' proves excessive, then re-queening is the only cure for that. But - I'd be inclined to wait and see how they behave under less invasive conditions before making a decision. I always give mine a second chance, just in case they were responding to bad weather, or something clumsy I accidently did.

If you're not sure what to look for when inspecting, then I'd suggest requesting the help of an experienced local beekeeper for your first couple of sorties into the brood boxes of those hives. He (or she) will be able to give immediate on-site advice and instruction - something that cannot be given on an internet forum, as replies will always involve a time-lag.

Very best of luck.
LJ

[mtnb]

Wow. Good luck!...dumb question, I'm sure...is that orange stuff in the cells of the dark comb pollen, or drone brood since it's so rounded, or what? 

[texanbelchers]

I'll agree with LJ about getting someone experienced to help, if you can.  In any case, find an extra hive body and a trash can to take with you next time; get covers for both.  Then you can remove a frame, clean it and set it in the spare box.  Discard the burr comb.  There is so much you'll want to keep it covered to minimize robbing issues.  You can always crush & strain that stuff after removing the larva sections later.

Take it slow.  It may take several trips cleaning up one or two boxes each time.

It sounds like you have a lot of bees in each colony.  Depending on timing and/or queen availability, you may want to split the nasty hives.  This should have a calming effect on all parties.  It could be the first step of requeening and then combine them again after she is accepted.

I like the idea of moving the colony away and letting the field bees fly back to the old location.  However, that is a lot of weight to move; I wouldn't attempt it by myself with 4-5 full deeps stacked up.  You'll find they get really angry when you dump the entire hive over.   

[little john]

Take it slow.  It may take several trips cleaning up one or two boxes each time.

That's something I meant to include in my post - but forgot. Bummer.  It's a really big job you've got on there, so - yes, I fully agree - take it slowly, a bit at a time.  LJ

[cao]

Take it slow.  It may take several trips cleaning up one or two boxes each time.

I definitely agree with this.  If you only work on the top box of each hive the bees are not as likely to get as mad.  Then the next trip you can work on the next box of each hive.

Well, you've got yourself one helluva job there ...

A couple of observations: do those frames have bottom bars ? If they have - do they have a regular beespace beneath them ? The reason I ask is that there must be a reason why just about every frame top-bar in the photographs has a comb stuck onto it from above. I think that issue would be worth sorting-out fairly early on.

It appears to me that the reason for the comb between boxes is that the bees ran out of room.  It does look like there is either a frame missing or broke in the pictures. I think that if you get the supers straightened up it will give them a place to store honey other than between boxes.

It is very important for you to check the brood chamber regularly.

I agree, but I would not rush it in this case.  If these hives are 5 boxes high and are all as packed with bees and honey as the one in the pictures, then I would assume that they are healthy bees.  There will be time to go through the brood nest once the rest of the supers are cleaned up.

Wow. Good luck!...dumb question, I'm sure...is that orange stuff in the cells of the dark comb pollen, or drone brood since it's so rounded, or what? 

There are no dumb questions.  It looks like drone brood to me.

After lifting two supers, I could tell that the bees would get aggressive if I went any deeper.

That is where I stop.  Once you can tell that they are getting aggressive then it's time to take a break and go to neutral corners.

I'm not sure what my general objective should be for these hives now. I was under the impression that I should try to install a queen excluder, so that future honey I extract won't come in dark, disfigured comb like shown, but what I learned from posting last is that a queen excluder may be even more detrimental to me now. If I don't use queen excluders, what else can I do to prevent the comb from going dark and unappetizing?

I personally don't use queen excluders but that is my preference and I will not advise anyone either way.  If you do want to use one then I would wait til you get them cleaned up.  All comb will eventually turn dark with age.  Comb that has been used for brood will turn dark relatively quick.  Unless you want comb honey, it doesn't matter how dark the comb is.

Good Luck.

[Wombat2]

"All comb will eventually turn dark with age.  Comb that has been used for brood will turn dark relatively quick.  Unless you want comb honey, it doesn't matter how dark the comb is."

But it does matter how old it is- cell walls in brood comb get thicker with each cycle as the cocoon is left behind. As the cell space gets small so do the emerging bees and eventually leading to a weaker hive. Rotate out old brood comb on a regular basis with the walls are about 1mm thick. 2-3 frames a month by way of brood lifts should take care of that problem

[yantabulla]

I think you may mean 2 -3 frames per year Wombat.

[Wombat2]

I think you may mean 2 -3 frames per year Wombat.

My mentor says to do it monthly in the spring build up to increase bee numbers ready for the flow- he says to continue through to autumn at a slower pace for a strong hive for winter. He does admit this is against all popular thought but bee numbers means honey - the more bees the more honey.

[yantabulla]

Sorry Wombat.  Early onset dementia. You are right.  Pulling sealed brood up in spring reduces the urge to swarm and give the queen more room to lay.  My apologies.

[mtnb]

by way of brood lifts

Wombat, what does that mean exactly? Do you mean like drone trapping? I don't understand.

[Wombat2]

by way of brood lifts

Wombat, what does that mean exactly? Do you mean like drone trapping? I don't understand.

"Brood Lifts" - taking frames of capped brood out of the Brood box and placing in the center of the next super up (making sure the queen is not carried on the frame) - replace the frames with stickies in the central area of the brood box
- but not side by side - have a frame of brood in between. This gives the queen more room to lay more eggs and increases the numbers of bees in the hive. Also remove any full frames of capped honey out of the brood box and move capped brood to the outside freeing up the central core for egg laying. As I mentioned the rotation of the brood frames also keeps the cells at the upper end of size as you can then asses the size from the honey super after the brood has hatched

[mtnb]

Ok. Thanks Wombat. I did do that last year. Didn't know it had a name. :) I tried googleing the term but wasn't finding anything that might have been relevant.

[D Coates]

brood lifts

I too had never heard that term but I'll start using it.  I do it for multiple reasons but the biggest (to me) is for capturing swarms.  I'll do a brood lift (see? already using it) and shake off the attendants when I do that.  A frame of open brood with no attendants will anchor a swarm down without fail.  I also do it if my 5 deep frame OB hive is getting congested but not shake off the attendants to do a quick 20 to 40% reduction of population.

[texanbelchers]

"stickies" is another interesting term.  I originally thought it may be recently extracted frames, but I have also seen reference to "wet" stickies.  So, it is really drawn frames???

This gives new meaning to the phrase "all beekeeping is local".   

[Wombat2]

"stickies" is another interesting term.  I originally thought it may be recently extracted frames, but I have also seen reference to "wet" stickies.  So, it is really drawn frames???

This gives new meaning to the phrase "all beekeeping is local".   

Yes recently extracted frames - Aussies like to use as few as words as possible and even then abbreviate them 

[omnimirage]

His frames don't have bottom bars on them. I find it bizarre, as every other frame I've seen in my life has. I'll have to look at how much space there is underneath some. There's got to be at least some space, as many of the frames are stuck with comb to the bottom.

The stands on the side are a bit odd. I can't particularly slide them across, they're too cramped and it'll damage whatever is underneath. Only option is to lift upwards, which can be impossible without a helping hand. If by myself, I'll be forced to remove frames individually, to lighten the weight. This experience is making me think 8 frame hives might be better for me.

We're just leaving summer, here.

I spent a long day doing this job two weeks ago. This is the log I wrote in my journal:

Didn't look at E1. Last time we opened it we took out frames. New frames needed. E2 is very full, honey and bee wise. Extracted one frame, added empty super on top. E3 completely full. Extracted 2 frames, put another super on top. E4 completely full. Put new super on top. E6 completely full. Fully extracted top super. E5* extremely full honey wise. Right side of hive had freshly made comb. 5 frames worth extracted. Left side complete clusterfuck. Tried to pull up 2 frames. Comb broke and mangled. cannot pull frames from left side. Must work from right to left. Fair amount of brood on the top. Noted number of drones. Possibly preparing to swarm. Added new double super on top.

*E5 is a weird double hive: there's two supers joined together, creating effectively about 20 frames for each layer.

I ran out of time to do everything. In five days time, I'm planning on returning to the site, and camping there for the weekend. I should hopefully get a lot of much needed work done. The bees were mostly placid.

I tried to take photos, but with how busy we were, and more importantly, how sticky everything was, we were only able to take a few.

http://imgur.com/a/L72Jt

All photos are of hive E6. This is the only hive we worked extensively on: all others we more or less did an emergency, swarm prevention work on them. I had put an empty super on top, but the frames were undrawn with a bee excluder underneath.

After working E6, something unusual caught my eye. As seen in the photos, the bees were hanging on the outside of the hive: maybe I was using too much smoke? I told my assistant to give the hive a light puff, about every two minutes. Many bees also died. I'm not sure why they did so. It's concerning because there was many, as shown in the photos.

[omnimirage]

The hive that I worked on the most, the one as seen in the photos, has met an unfortunate outcome: they've somehow drowned. Photos: https://imgur.com/a/XVo6P

No idea how it happened. I didn't pay that much attention to the positioning of the lid when I opened it, as far as I could tell it was positioned on correctly. If it wasn't on properly, it wasn't off by any large margin, a gap at most. I'm really perplexed by this.