Preparation for winter - newbee question 1

[folieadeux]

Hi all :)
I've been reading the forum & keeping up with other peoples problems & news. I'm grateful for all the experienced beekeepers who respond & share their knowledge, experience & time with us new people. Thank you for that :)
And now I also have a couple of questions :)

The short spell of near perfect weather we got towards the end of summer has quickly reverted to its more usual Southern Highlands misery, & autumn is well & truly with us, reminding us of the unpleasant weather to come :( 
Our 2 hives appear to have done very well since we got them in late October (one was a swarm, the other a package.) They are in standard Langstroth boxes - the swarm in an 8 frame, the package in a 10 frame.

The 8 frame swarm bees are in 3 full depth boxes, plus a WSP on top.
The 10 frame package bees are in 3 full depth boxes.
There are no queen excluders on either box.
(More information & questions on this part to follow in a separate post.)

I'm uncertain if we should move the hives into the shed (concrete block & partially buried - so a bit less cold than outside, & eliminating the strong wind & horizontal rain issue) or try to insulate them where they stand in the yard.

If we move them into the shed we could position them with the front of the hive level with the north facing outside wall of the shed (in a space that used to contain a large glass window) with the body of the hive in the shed (we would board up the rest of the space so the bees couldn't fly behind the hive & into the shed). Our 2 story house is to the front (east) of it, & the hive wouldn't have the sun actually hit it until later in the day. I'm thinking moving to the shed would give the hives a more consistent (& somewhat more hospitable) temperature & prevent the moisture build up & consequent dripping water that would happen when the sun did hit them if we leave them in the yard. There is a gate post a few feet in front of where they stand in the yard now, & most days over winter I wake up to see a perfect circle of thin ice on the top of it that takes until morning tea time to thaw. I'm thinking the bees won't be very happy (or healthy) if every morning tea they have freezing water dripping on them :(

If we leave the hives in the yard the sun will hit them somewhat earlier than it would in the shed wall, but in addition to the drip, might the wind & rain also be an issue for them? The rain can be horizontal & the wind freezing & can blow for days on end. I have noticed that the commercial Langstroth boxes we use are not an absolutely perfect fit, & while tiny, there are gaps between the boxes. We could try to insulate them where they stand (maybe with polystyrene/ corflute/ straw bales?) but I don't think we could do it perfectly with a "do-it-youself" retro-fit.
I've already reduced the entrances down to about the length of a matchbox & am trying to think of a simple solution to stop the wind going straight in their "front door" (a single bottom entrance on both hives).

Winter temperatures here are typically in the high teens down to freezing. Heavy frosts are common, and from time to time it snows. Historic minimum temperature is  −11.2 ?C (11.8 ?F) in July 1971 (!!!)  but more commonly it just gets down to freezing or a few degrees below. Problematically, there can also be lovely mild sunny days thrown into the mix as well,
which makes me even more nervous & unsure about this whole wintering thing :/

Is my objective to prevent them getting too cold? Or by preventing them getting cold enough will I cause them to fail to "hibernate" when they otherwise might have, or to break their cluster & fly on days they otherwise wouldn't?
I also don't know enough about what food sources they will/won't have here over winter. (Stored honey is not an issue - see following post.)

There is enough underground (semi-buried or bottom storey) shed space here that we could put them somewhere out of the way, cold & always dark for the winter if that would be a better solution than having bees flying on mild days & then freezing & wet the next?

[Acebird]

Your objective should be to keep them dry and not worry about the cold.  The chances are the wind comes from a common direction so I would suggest a wind break.  If you want to insulate I suggest the top, actually only the top.  If the hives are populated and have plenty of stores they will come through your cold season just fine.  The hive needs ventilation in a moist climate.  That doesn't mean take the top off.

[GSF]

What is your winter like?

[KeyLargoBees]

As ace said....wet is bad and hard for the bees to deal with but they handle multiple feet of snow just fine. A windbreak and some assurances that the hives wont have your "horizontal rain" blowing direct into the entrances will most likely be enough.

[Michael Bush]

>Historic minimum temperature is  −11.2 ?C (11.8 ?F) in July 1971 (!!!)

In Nebraska we call that spring and fall weather...

[folieadeux]

>Historic minimum temperature is  −11.2 ?C (11.8 ?F) in July 1971 (!!!)

In Nebraska we call that spring and fall weather...

lol 
Yeah ... I knew someone would say something like that 
I have cyber-friends in the US on a farming forum, & I never dare complain about how cold it is milking in the mornings when they have to drag their milking gear out to the barn on a sled! 

[Michael Bush]

It was in the 70s here yesterday.  It is going to snow 3-5 inches tonight...

[folieadeux]

What is your winter like?

GSF ... I was walking around with a frown half the morning, pondering your question, puzzled as to how I had failed to explain things clearly in my post.

And then the penny dropped :) :) :)

I'm sure I'm related to Sheldon Cooper  :) ;)

[folieadeux]

It was in the 70s here yesterday.  It is going to snow 3-5 inches tonight...

Oh wow.
I hope you have lots of top quality firewood & lots of excellent reading material on hand Michael :)

[folieadeux]

Your objective should be to keep them dry and not worry about the cold.  The chances are the wind comes from a common direction so I would suggest a wind break.  If you want to insulate I suggest the top, actually only the top.  If the hives are populated and have plenty of stores they will come through your cold season just fine.  The hive needs ventilation in a moist climate.  That doesn't mean take the top off.

Thank you for your reply Acebird :)
There's plenty of honey ... in fact how much to leave is my next question, but I'll write a separate post for that.

[folieadeux]

As ace said....wet is bad and hard for the bees to deal with but they handle multiple feet of snow just fine. A windbreak and some assurances that the hives wont have your "horizontal rain" blowing direct into the entrances will most likely be enough.

Thank you for your response KeyLargoBees :)
We're trying to figure out something simple to construct that will reduce the effect of the wind & keep the rain outside :)

[little john]

There is enough underground (semi-buried or bottom storey) shed space here that we could put them somewhere out of the way, cold & always dark for the winter if that would be a better solution than having bees flying on mild days & then freezing & wet the next?

That was the approach the 'old-timers' used to take.  If you read through the old classic books on beekeeping, over-wintering in cellars was a method favoured by many, way back then.  Personally, I can't comment on this method any further, as I've never done this ... as I don't have a cellar !  But - I do know that there's more to it than just stacking the boxes and leaving them alone until Spring.  Suggest you read a lot more about this method, if you plan on trying it.

I'm uncertain if we should move the hives into the shed (concrete block & partially buried - so a bit less cold than outside, & eliminating the strong wind & horizontal rain issue) or try to insulate them where they stand in the yard.

Problematically, there can also be lovely mild sunny days thrown into the mix as well, which makes me even more nervous & unsure about this whole wintering thing

Not a good idea - unless you can arrange to move the hives stepwise towards and into the shed well before the onset of winter.  What you don't want to do is create a sudden change in location where bees may emerge for a few hours on a sunny afternoon and then have difficulty finding their way 'back home' as the temperatures begin to drop.
Such sheds are a mixed blessing: on the one hand they protect from the extremes of weather, and yet they deny bees the opportunity of relieving themselves during very short windows of warmth from winter sunshine.  That's one reason why I favour wooden hives over polystyrene in my (non-extreme but highly unpredictable) climate.

I also don't know enough about what food sources they will/won't have here over winter. (Stored honey is not an issue - see following post.)

There are quite a few sources on the web which will advise X number of Kilos of stores per colony prior to the onset of winter, which are determined by hefting.  Now, although that method may be useful if a beekeeper has standardised hive boxes, it's not very helpful if the hives are of different designs and weights.  It also involves an element of 'crystal-ball prediction' of winter weather conditions - which for some of us, can vary considerably from year to year.

The method I've adopted (with zero over-winter colony loss thus far) is to make an inspection around September-time, and use best judgement to ensure that there are adequate stores in place, and feed appropriate amounts of heavy syrup if not.  Then, I make a last inspection in October to confirm.  From then on the boxes stay sealed until Spring.
Just as a motorist wouldn't dream of driving a car without some form of fuel gauge, I place the equivalent - a small inverted jar of fondant - over a hole in the crown board (inner cover) and underneath a substantial layer of top insulation, some time around February.  This year I brought this procedure forward to January, in view of the highly unusual high winter temperatures we've experienced (the highest UK December temperatures on record, apparently).

My experience has been that bees will only take fondant when their honey stores run low, so such jars can be used as a rough kind of 'fuel-gauge', and are visually checked weekly without disturbing the bees in any way.
As this winter's temperatures have been truly exceptional, I decided to double-up the inverted jars 'just in case', but used damp sugar (allowed to set hard) instead of fondant.  In contrast to winter, this spring is proving to be very cold indeed, and the bees haven't started flying yet - but they are taking advantage of the fondant and/or sugar.  But much to my surprise, many colonies have shown a preference for sugar over fondant, although both sources are currently being consumed with a vengeance.

Feeding bees over-winter is very 'location-dependent', and so the above may or may not be relevant to your situation - but I hope it may at least be of some passing interest.

Later ...

Ok - I've just done my rounds this morning - and here's a shot of a good example of what I'm talking about - a long hive (with roof, feeder-eke and insulation removed) which shows the fondant almost exhausted, and maybe 30% of the sugar having been munched away.  But - this presents as no problem, no drama - I'll just replace the fondant with more sugar sometime over the weekend, and if a flow should start before it's all been consumed, I'll just remove it and turn any uneaten sugar into sugar-syrup for stock.




LJ

[Michael Bush]

>I hope you have lots of top quality firewood & lots of excellent reading material on hand Michael :)

3-5 inches of snow will not leave me at home... I'll be at work...

[folieadeux]

>I hope you have lots of top quality firewood & lots of excellent reading material on hand Michael :)

3-5 inches of snow will not leave me at home... I'll be at work...

Oh my 

I guess the reality is that if you live in a place where it snows then you adapt your lifestyle to snow.
I remember when I moved down here & my dogs saw snow for the first time :) I'd never seen a dog trying to tip toe before :) :)  It was very funny to watch 

[folieadeux]

Thank you so much for your extensive reply little john :)

"But - I do know that there's more to it than just stacking the boxes and leaving them alone until Spring.  Suggest you read a lot more about this method, if you plan on trying it."

I've been reading like a maniac since I first caught the "bee bug" back in October, & I'll keep reading for a long while yet I reckon :) There is a LOT to know : / 

"Not a good idea - unless you can arrange to move the hives stepwise towards and into the shed well before the onset of winter."

There's no problem with this bit. Their permanent location is just several metres in front of the shed anyway, so we would only have to move them about 3 times to get them into position in the shed.

"What you don't want to do is create a sudden change in location where bees may emerge for a few hours on a sunny afternoon and then have difficulty finding their way 'back home' as the temperatures begin to drop."
I've been reading more on this subject on the very interesting thread "Beehives in a shed?" by Richard M: http://www.beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=45997.0

"That's one reason why I favour wooden hives over polystyrene in my (non-extreme but highly unpredictable) climate."

I investigated polystyrene hives when we first got the bees.  I spoke at length to the guy who is the importer for the Scandinavian high-density expanded polystyrene model here in NSW. They sound like they provide awesome insulation from heat & cold. However in spite of his assurances that they meet organic certification standards etc, I just can't get my head around putting bees & honey in a polystyrene box. We ended up buying ordinary pine Langstroth boxes, but I am still thinking about how to (fairly simply & relatively inexpensively) give them better insulation - from heat & cold.

"There are quite a few sources on the web which will advise X number of Kilos of stores per colony prior to the onset of winter, which are determined by hefting.  Now, although that method may be useful if a beekeeper has standardised hive boxes, it's not very helpful if the hives are of different designs and weights.  It also involves an element of 'crystal-ball prediction' of winter weather conditions - which for some of us, can vary considerably from year to year."

I think they have plenty of honey. To keep things simple I'll write another post about that question.
At the moment we only have 2 standard Langstroth hives, so we don't need to worry about calculations for other hives styles yet :)  However I am very keen to get a "Long Langstroth" & an "extra-deep Horizontal Hive" going, to observe the differences/ advantages/ disadvantages, so that may be a question for next autumn :)
The thing that is causing me a bit of concern is that the local beekeeper we bought the used 8 frame box from (we needed an emergency box when I brought home the swarm) doesn't keep his bees up here in the Highlands - he keeps them closer to the coast. He said it's too cold & there's not enough food for bees up here over winter. I guess there's a difference between the resources needed by our 2 hives & his 40 hives though. Also, we are happy to muck around providing insulation /wind breaks etc, whereas that may not be the case for him (he's 80 something).

"From then on the boxes stay sealed until Spring."
Just to clarify: You mean you don't open them again until spring, rather than actually sealing the entrances?

Thank you for the information regarding the fondant & sugar feeding. I'm very much hoping not to feed the bees any cane sugar, however if it came to choosing between feeding sugar or having dead bees, I'd feed the sugar. It's useful information to tuck away at the back of my head thank you :)

Finally - thank you for the photo :) As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words :)

[yantabulla]

Folieadeux with respect you are overthinking everything. 

You are in the Southern Highlands of NSW not Nebraska.

Your bees will survive the winter provided they are disease free.

Cold is good for bees.

Leave them where they are.

Reduce the hive size to a brood box and a super of honey.

Reduce the size of the hive entrance.

Don't seal up the hive entrance.  You will kill them.

Yanta.

[MikeyN.C.]

 Well said

[little john]

"From then on the boxes stay sealed until Spring."
Just to clarify: You mean you don't open them again until spring, rather than actually sealing the entrances?

Sorry for the confusion - I was referring to the boxes themselves, and the propolis which seals them, rather than the entrances: which stay open all year round, and are enlarged and reduced in size according to the season.

Some beekeepers break the propolis seal when removing the crown board (inner cover) in order to insert an eke above the top box which is then filled with slabs of fondant.  For me, the propolis which seals both the crown board and any cracks between the boxes, is sacred - the bees have spent a lot of effort in both harvesting that propolis (when they could have been bringing-in nectar for stores), and then sealing-up the cracks with it.  They do this for a reason, and yet we humans consider this 'bee-glue' to be a bl##dy nuisance, and something to be both despised, and routinely removed.

So, as the bees appear to seal cracks for a definite reason, I respect their efforts, and the boxes (but NOT the entrances) stay fully sealed over the winter period, and a small jar of fondant is placed over a hole in the crown board as a stores-level INDICATOR, with additional feed given via the same route if that should become necessary.

LJ

[folieadeux]

Folieadeux with respect you are overthinking everything. 

You are in the Southern Highlands of NSW not Nebraska.

Your bees will survive the winter provided they are disease free.

Cold is good for bees.

Leave them where they are.

Reduce the hive size to a brood box and a super of honey.

Reduce the size of the hive entrance.

Don't seal up the hive entrance.  You will kill them.

Yanta.

lol :) :) :)

We only have 2 hives, & I'm a new-bee & have "bee-fever" :)

Yep ... I admit I'm a little over focused on them :) :) :)

I am, however, committed to only over-thinking all this stuff (as opposed to actually doing it).

Relax :)

The bees are actually pretty safe :)

[folieadeux]

For me, the propolis which seals both the crown board and any cracks between the boxes, is sacred - the bees have spent a lot of effort in both harvesting that propolis (when they could have been bringing-in nectar for stores), and then sealing-up the cracks with it.  They do this for a reason, and yet we humans consider this 'bee-glue' to be a bl##dy nuisance, and something to be both despised, and routinely removed.

So, as the bees appear to seal cracks for a definite reason, I respect their efforts, ...

LJ

I'm so new to bees that my opinion is worth what you're paying for it ... :)
That being said - I like your thinking here little john :)
Thank you for sharing.