Laying Workers?

Matt J · April 23, 2016, 09:37:48 PM

Installed this package 9 days ago. Queen was released by the bees in 3 days. Did first inspection today. This is what I saw. Could not find the queen.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dallasbeek · April 23, 2016, 10:44:53 PM

Some double eggs, but in the bottom of the cell is what I see. Can't tell if that's a queen cell they're building. Wait for more experience, but young queens sometimes lay more than one egg in a cell. Laying workers don't get the eggs in the bottom of the cell as a rule.

BeeMaster2 · April 24, 2016, 12:09:15 AM

Dallas is right on. That is a new queen doing that not laying worker. If they were on the side, it would be laying worker.
Did you pay for a mated queen. This is not the work of a proven queen. She is just getting started. Talk to the seller.
Jim

Matt J · April 24, 2016, 09:11:04 AM

I did talk to the seller, and he is happy to give me another queen, but he won't have any until Wednesday. Which I guess is ok. It'd take that long for one to be shipped. I wish I could find my queen so I can be 100% sure it's not Latin worker. It'd be a whole lot easier to simply re-queen rather than shake them all!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Matt J · April 24, 2016, 09:12:09 AM

Also, there were eggs on some pollen cells, if that makes a difference.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

iddee · April 24, 2016, 09:43:51 AM

Rather than getting a new queen, I would return the nuc and demand a different one. One that is in good condition, as was paid for. let him correct the bad one.

Matt J · April 24, 2016, 10:02:04 AM

Quote from: iddee on April 24, 2016, 09:43:51 AM
Rather than getting a new queen, I would return the nuc and demand a different one. One that is in good condition, as was paid for. let him correct the bad one.

It was a package.

Matt J · April 24, 2016, 10:03:09 AM

Quote from: iddee on April 24, 2016, 09:43:51 AM
Rather than getting a new queen, I would return the nuc and demand a different one. One that is in good condition, as was paid for. let him correct the bad one.

But you are right. I'd rather just start over seeing as it's only been 10 days.

iddee · April 24, 2016, 12:02:51 PM

Then it should not be laying workers. They don't develop that fast. By Wednesday she should be laying one egg per cell. Check again before adding a queen.

Matt J · April 24, 2016, 05:47:29 PM

I checked for the queen again today with no luck. I really don't think she's there.

If I got ahold of a Nuc, could I combine the Nuc and the LW hive via the newspaper method? Should be open and capped brood in a Nuc, plus a queen, which, if I'm thinking right, should suppress their want to lay? Thoughts?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dallasbeek · April 24, 2016, 06:33:28 PM

It's really, really, really hard to spot a young queen. Look for eggs, not a queen. If you combine the new nuc with the hive you have, you'll end up with one queen, where now you likely have two. I don't know aboit how they teach economics where you went to school, but to me that's a loss. Take Iddee's advice and wait to see what the eggs look like Wednesday. Or not. It's your bees, your queen(s) and your business.

Going into the hive constantly is a good way to either roll (kill) the queen or have the bees determine she's the reason their life keeps getting disrupted. When they do that, they'll kill her. Then you'll wind up with laying workers.

Have patience, grasshopper.

iddee · April 24, 2016, 06:35:14 PM

I would make the seller make it right. A package won't make laying workers in 9 days.

Dallasbeek · April 24, 2016, 06:38:19 PM

If you can do so(some people using phones can't), go into your profile and enter your location. Most answers to your questions depend on your location. Also, there may be an experienced beek on here that's near you and could perhaps help you. If you're unable to edit your profile an administrator could help you edit it.

Matt J · April 24, 2016, 06:38:23 PM

Quote from: Dallasbeek on April 24, 2016, 06:33:28 PM
It's really, really, really hard to spot a young queen. Look for eggs, not a queen. If you combine the new nuc with the hive you have, you'll end up with one queen, where now you likely have two. I don't know aboit how they teach economics where you went to school, but to me that's a loss. Take Iddee's advice and wait to see what the eggs look like Wednesday. Or not. It's your bees, your queen(s) and your business.

Going into the hive constantly is a good way to either roll (kill) the queen or have the bees determine she's the reason their life keeps getting disrupted. When they do that, they'll kill her. Then you'll wind up with laying workers.

Have patience, grasshopper.

Thank you for the advice. You're right. I don't need to be going in a lot. I am very careful to have technique to avoid rolling the queen (pull out the end frame, and make sure I have enough room when I putt another). But I could still do more harm than good by looking for her. I guess I kinda feel like if I have LW, I need to try to fix it quick, but I can definitely benefit from patience.

GSF · April 25, 2016, 03:47:16 PM

Keep us posted Matt, and ditto on the generalized location of your profile. It helps a lot.

Matt J · April 25, 2016, 10:38:05 PM

Quote from: GSF on April 25, 2016, 03:47:16 PM
Keep us posted Matt, and ditto on the generalized location of your profile. It helps a lot.

Thanks! I finally put my location in. Seems I'm pretty close to you.

So here's where I'm at. I've been getting a lot of conflicting advice. Some are telling me to wait it out. And for good reason. I realize I am not good at finding one, and a new queen is very hard to find. Others, local 30+ year beekeepers are telling me to try to fix it immediately. At the same time, my supplier will have queens ready Wednesday. As of yesterday, my second look, i still have lots of multiple eggs. Very few singles, and no queen found. There is about 4 frames drawn, so if I have a good queen, she doesn't have a lot of room to lay. The foundation is not fully drawn out in terms of depth, so workers could theoretically reach the bottom of the cells.

I have also read Michael Bush's thoughts on Laying workers, and I have all the signs. Most notably, eggs on top of pollen. They're taking very little syrup, which may not mean anything, but my other hive has consumed almost a quart in a day. This hive, not even close.

My problem (and I will call him tomorrow to find out) is I don't know how long my supplier will have queens available. I want to wait until the brood that I have is capped. If its all drones, then i know I don't have a queen and i can go from there. Seems to me, if I have laying workers now, waiting a bit to let them cap it won't matter all that much. The treatment is the same. I don't want to take open brood from my other hive, because its doing well after a week, and I don't want to sacrifice that.

So this is my plan. I'm not going back in the hive until I know how long the supplier will have queens available. If I can wait a week before I check again, I will. I don't want to risk rolling a queen that may be there trying to figure out where to lay all those eggs. If he'll only have queens a short time, then I'll have to decide if i still want to wait, and order a queen online if needed, or just go get one from him (which will probably be a free replacement of the one I had/have).

I do know this. I now fully understand what Laying Workers are and the signs of having them. I fully understand how the queen pheromone AND brood pheromone suppresses the drive for workers to lay. I also fully understand that new queens can sometimes lay multiples, and that they are typically VERY hard to find. I also fully understand that queens can be hard to come by. And, I fully understand that it is very advisable to start with 2 hives.

Bottom line, regardless of the outcome, I will be a better beekeeper because of this experience. I just hope I continue this year with 2 hives!

Please let me know any thoughts.

Dallasbeek · April 25, 2016, 11:31:39 PM

Sounds like you have learned a whole lot in a very short time. Good job!

GSF · April 26, 2016, 08:16:30 AM

If I were in your situation and had the options you have I'd get another queen. Chances are more so than not that you have laying workers. Be sure to shake out the bees in order to loose the laying workers.

I'd shake them out at a point as to when they return to the apiary the first hive they reach would be theirs. Otherwise you'll have a weak hive after the flow. Keep your eye on them, you may have to continue feeding after the flow. Privet is starting to open up down here. I've seen magnolia opening up south of here.

Matt J · April 26, 2016, 08:52:49 AM

Quote from: GSF on April 26, 2016, 08:16:30 AM
If I were in your situation and had the options you have I'd get another queen. Chances are more so than not that you have laying workers. Be sure to shake out the bees in order to loose the laying workers.

I'd shake them out at a point as to when they return to the apiary the first hive they reach would be theirs. Otherwise you'll have a weak hive after the flow. Keep your eye on them, you may have to continue feeding after the flow. Privet is starting to open up down here. I've seen magnolia opening up south of here.

I'm guessing this has to be done in the daylight, right? I am in a residential area, and shaking thousands of bees is a little more big profile than I like. But I'll do what I've got to.

BeeMaster2 · April 26, 2016, 12:52:02 PM

Yes, shaking out the bees is a daylight thing. You want the bees to fly home, not walk, seriously. If you have a wooded area, nearby, close them up put them in your truck and shake them out there. The bees fly back and the laying workers are too heavy to make it. Have a box setup in the old location, the bees will beat you back to the hive. The bees that stay on the ground, are the laying workers and any remaining nurse bees. you do not want them.
Jim