Queenless in Seattle? Help!

Playapixie · May 03, 2016, 03:02:21 AM

I installed two 5-frame deep nucs into 8-frame hive bodies 15 days ago. Went in for my first hive inspections today, and wow, I sure didn't get what I was expecting.

Both of these hives were set up with 5 frame nucs in 8 frame deep hive bodies, with three completely empty wired frames for them to build natural comb on. Above that is a medium box that had three empty brood combs in the middle and 5 medium frames of honey on the edges. I have not fed these hives sugar syrup because I gave them all that honey. Both hives were packed to the gills with larvae and capped brood when they were installed, and all 5 frames were completely covered with bees. Queens were seen in both hives.

The first hive is a mystery and I don't know what to make of it. Here's what I see:
-Did not see the queen
-packed to the brim with nectar (and pollen) basically everywhere and there is barely any room anywhere for the queen to lay. There is no honey flow in Seattle right now, so I'm not sure where they are getting all of this nectar from, but I fear they may be robbing my second hive (which is certainly queenless...more about that next.)
-There is a small amount of open brood on 4 frames in the brood nest, but not very much, which I suspect may be because there is no room for the queen to lay due to all of that nectar (however, they have only drawn out about 20% of one of the empty frames, so there is definitely space they could be building new comb.
-I don't see very many super young open brood.
-The queen has been up to the medium above the deep and layed a solid pattern of worker brood in one frame, which is already capped.
-I don't see eggs (but again, there aren't a lot of open sections for a queen to lay)
-I see one capped cell that looks like a swarm cell on the bottom row of a foundationless natural frame that is otherwise full of capped worker brood that was definitely laid after the nuc was installed.
-I see two areas that appear to have emergency cells higher up in the frames, with probably two that are capped.
-The only comb that they have drawn on the empty frames so far is full of capped drone brood and some nectar; this is foundationless so they may just be building drone because they can (rather than being a laying worker.)
-This hive was quite testy today

So, I am honestly not sure if this hive is queenless. I went all the way through the hive twice and didn't see the queen, and I didn't see eggs either. But there are areas of solid worker brood that are capped that I am sure are new since the installation, and areas with larvae. But there is hardly any room for the queen to even lay, so maybe that's why I can't find eggs. What open brood I do find seem to be clustered well together. Aside from the large area of drone in the one new foundationless comb (which is pretty solid, not spotty,) I don't have any real evidence to think it's a laying worker. But there are definitely cells that look like emergency cells to me. Could they have swarmed? Maybe...but I doubt it. My house is surrounded by tall condos and I'm pretty sure I would have heard about it if we had a swarm.

What do I do? Should I give them more brood comb to lay in? I can pull a couple frames of honey and replace them with brood comb from my freezer. Or I could add another medium box with brood comb, but I don't think there are nearly enough bees to cover any more comb right now. Do I leave them alone and check back in a few days or a week? If they do turn out to be queenless, do I let them replace her (which they may already be doing?). The photos are both from this hive. Unfortunately I don't have a phot of the one cell that clearly looks like a swarm cell (camera malfunction.)

My other hive is queenless, without a doubt. No uncapped larvae, no eggs, and no emergency cells. Their temperament is weirdly chilled out. This nuc was packed with brood, bees, and we saw the queen when we installed it. I am searching now to find a queen to re-Queen with ASAP. It is possible that this hive is being robbed by the other hive, though it still has tons of honey. I have seen bees fighting on the ground outside the hive though (but not on the landing board of either hive.)

Any ideas? I was definitely not expecting to find both hives in trouble today! I never had anything like this with my hives last year (which was my first year.). I lost both hives over the winter, and knowing what I now know, I think it was to varroa (won't make that mistake again.) I was excited to start with these two nucs and lots of resources this year, so it's disappointing to already be in trouble.

Dawn Bustanoby
Seattle, WA
http://www.playapixie.org

Michael Bush · May 03, 2016, 08:28:43 AM

A colony that has a population that is rapidly expanding and has a dozen or more cells is probably swarming. A colony that has one or two queen cells is not swarming. A colony that is dwindling is not swarming. Swarm cells are all different ages. Supersedure and emergency cells are all the same age.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfallacies.htm#swarmcellsonbottom
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm#supersedure

The cure for all queen problems:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beespanacea.htm

JackM · May 03, 2016, 08:35:23 AM

First of all, Seattle has trees, right? Well the trees down south here in Washougal (near Vancouver) are just finishing blooming. Yes, my hives loaded up with honey to the point not much room to lay, so there has been plenty for them to put up. Even the blackberries are showing buds already. My hives have so much uncapped honey that I am adding a new box every 5 days right now. Once I get some capped frames I will pull them and give more room to lay.

I have no answers why this happened. I do note in my hives I only just got swarm cells in last week. I expected them quite some time ago the way the hives built.

The hive with all the drone brood could be laying workers.

You do have someone on the penninsula who sells queens. You would have to do internet search. He has survivor wild bees, they tend to be more aggressive according to him.

That first photo shows one capped queen cell and another uncapped. That hive may survive if they do.

GSF · May 03, 2016, 08:40:53 AM

To the right of your drone brood is a swarm/queen cell. Drone brood is the first sign that swarm season is close at hand or already is. Your hive(s) may be at this stage with the drones, other colonies may be way ahead of yours. Below to the right of the drone brood you'll see a small "dry" area. When I see this I think they've prepared an area for laying. That's based on the fact there's nectar all around it. If you don't have a lot of capped worker brood then that's probably a supercedure taking place.

On a positive note, I'd say that they both have swarmed. The one you think is queen less may be but may not be. You probably have a virgin queen who can run faster than she can fly. If they were being robbed the comb cells would tell the story. Instead of circular ends they would be chewed up with wax cappings on the bottom(floor).

Playapixie · May 03, 2016, 06:01:33 PM

That's good news that there isn't robbing. The cells aren't ripped. It makes sense that the hive that is full has just been bringing in lots of nectar. There aren't a lot of swarm cells so I don't think they swarmed. I'm going to give them another box and check back in a week.

The other hive I am pretty certain is queenless and has not swarmed. It has no swarm cells. Going to requeen them tomorrow.

Psparr · May 03, 2016, 06:38:27 PM

If the frames aren't filled with bees I wouldn't give them another box yet.

cao · May 03, 2016, 06:56:32 PM

Quote from: Playapixie on May 03, 2016, 03:02:21 AM
Both hives were packed to the gills with larvae and capped brood when they were installed, and all 5 frames were completely covered with bees. Queens were seen in both hives.

How many bees do you have in the hive now? After 15 days I would think it should be nearly double or maybe more. If not then I would say that they have swarmed. Usually the queen leaves when the queen cells are capped. Which you have on in your first picture. If she left a few days ago would also explain the lack of egg or young brood. She has to have some time to get ready to fly. The capped queen cell will hatch with a week and I usually let them be for another week or two to get mated and start to lay. So I would check on them in two weeks to see if she is in there and maybe laying. If she hasn't started laying yet I'd check again in another week. After that then I might start worrying.

As far as your second hive, the same question applies about number of bees. The second hive could have swarmed or superceded if they were on the ball and started a queen about the time if installation. If my bee math is correct, It takes 16 days for a queen to hatch from the time the egg is laid. If they started a queen from a cell that was laid in the nuc then she could have hatched and the bees could have already torn down the cell. She could have been out on a mating flight. I'm not saying that this is what happened, just that this is a possibility. I would give them a week and check on them again. If you are going to requeen them then pay attention to how they react to the new queen. That will tell you if they are queenless of not. If they seem happy to see her verses trying to kill her. Hope things go well.

Playapixie · May 11, 2016, 01:45:35 AM

One hive was definitely queenless and I have them a new queen in a cage a few days ago. I see them bringing in pollen now so I'm hopeful they accepted her. Will be pulling the cage tomorrow and fingers crossed for eggs.

The other hive (the one that was full of nectar) also appears to be queenless, and they have now town down the queen cells I saw a couple weeks ago, but I haven't seen new eggs or larvae yet. Hoping this means they have a new virgin who just hasn't started laying yet. Planning to give them another week before taking any further action.