Medical advice

JackM · June 22, 2016, 07:34:51 AM

Folks, in the years I have been hanging around, I have seen many, many threads involving allergic reactions and medical type stuff.

Many times the medical advice being given is not correct, could cause further harm, or may indeed be right on. So. If you wish to offer medical advice, please put your level of medical training. The internet is NOT a good source for medical advice. It is always good to quote or supply your medical reference if a specific point.

My name is Jack and I am a retired Paramedic with a wife that is an advanced practice nurse.

RustyUPNY · June 22, 2016, 07:46:15 AM

I'll speak to this just for a second... I have worked in emergency medicine for over 15 years as a medical provider. If I had a nickel for every time someone told me they read the Internet and tried to diagnose themselves I would have retired after 5 years. Maybe, maybe 10% of the time they found some correct information from websites or people who look to be reputable. Needless to say, to sure is convenent to get medical advice from the web, but it is often misleading and incorrect. That and anyone can start a website or claim to be someone their not.

Of course the same could be said about getting any type of advice off the internet... But you all seem to know what you're talking about

Acebird · June 22, 2016, 08:24:07 AM

Hmm, why are we all here? We collect information from all sorts of people with all sorts of backgrounds. Most of us don't have a doctorate in beekeeping. I don't think collecting information off the internet before going to see the sheep skin doctor is a bad thing. Our medical system is majorly screwed up and heavily influenced by the drug companies. The internet is an excellent source of information, not all good, just like doctors.

KeyLargoBees · June 22, 2016, 09:04:32 AM

I think you are missing the point Ace...you can gather all the info you want....just dont turn around and pass that info off as FACT in a forum post. Anecdotal strories and whatnot are all well and good but a lot of New beekeepers are on here and if they look at one of us with hundreds or thousands of posts and we are spouting opinion and having it look like fact there is a very real possibility of some harm coming of our opinion when it comes to allergic reactions to stings or when to and when not to use a pen and whatnot.

Acebird · June 22, 2016, 09:39:11 AM

Got me thinking again Jeff. I don't think there is a medical doctor that will give you a prescription for an epi pen and say it is all right to use it on someone else. But that appears to be a common plan for some beekeepers.

Any person reading any post on a public forum no matter who it comes from should consider it an opinion first. That way the only harm that could come from the post is if you did not verify to your own satisfaction that the post could be true.

I have seen well known and authoritative people adamantly disagreeing on bee topics in forum discussions. It is a hobby that is loaded with opinions right from the start. No one that I know of is concerned when the experts disagree because it is just discussion of opinions, maybe stated as fact.

iddee · June 22, 2016, 10:30:39 AM

If medical advice could be accurately given on a large scale you would never need to go see a doctor. What works for one doesn't work for another. Any advice you get on the internet may work for you, but kill someone else, or may not work for you, but would for someone else. You have to understand your own anatomy before you can take a stranger's advice.

Ace, my doctor keeps my prescription fresh even tho he knows I can take 100 plus stings with no problem. It is strictly for others when I am working bees or doing a removal in public. Again, no two people can take the same sample of medical advice the same way.

Caribou · June 22, 2016, 12:05:54 PM

I have a cousin that is alive today because he looked stuff up on the internet. His doctor almost killed him and told him he couldn't possibly have what he had. the doctor refused to treat or test for his disease. My cousin can no longer work because of the delay in treatment.

I have some great doctors. I have had some not so great doctors. The more you know the better off you are. I get info from the net, books, friends, and medical professionals. I weigh all my information before I come to accept a plan. Doctors are my primary resource for medical advice but doctors come with all sorts of skill levels and everyone has a bad day.

Acebird · June 22, 2016, 12:45:21 PM

Quote from: Caribou on June 22, 2016, 12:05:54 PM
The more you know the better off you are.

Or even the better you are informed the better you can make personal decisions. Iddee the choice to use your prescription on someone else is your decision. You will have to live with the consequences.

flyboy · June 22, 2016, 12:54:30 PM

I agree with your assessment Acebird and I also don't think that anyone will be swayed to do what they weren't inclined to do anyway, by what they read on the net.

Quote from: JackM on June 22, 2016, 07:34:51 AM
Folks, in the years I have been hanging around, I have seen many, many threads involving allergic reactions and medical type stuff.

Many times the medical advice being given is not correct, could cause further harm, or may indeed be right on. So. If you wish to offer medical advice, please put your level of medical training. The internet is NOT a good source for medical advice. It is always good to quote or supply your medical reference if a specific point.

My name is Jack and I am a retired Paramedic with a wife that is an advanced practice nurse.

I don't think that anyone is going to go and do something that they weren't inclined to do, after reading a thread online. Every human is going to talk their friend/neighbour whoever before making a decision.

Unfortunately experts used to get away with murder after getting a degree. PPL are wise to not just accepting any advice without a second or third opinion. I broke my wrist and fractured my hip a year ago and was patched up well and glad of it and they did a good job on my wrist. However the whole time I had a steady succession of medical PPl trying to give me everything from Tylenol (hard on the liver) to morphine. I refused the crap and was glad. I was back at Tai Chi in 3 weeks and on my bike after 4 weeks.

However the down side of that system is the scary part. There was a study done in hospitals published in 1999 that showed that iatrogenic (medical system errors) deaths was 98,000.

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2013/09/20/224507654/how-many-die-from-medical-mistakes-in-u-s-hospitals

"?.Now comes a study in the current issue of the Journal of Patient Safety that says the numbers may be much higher ? between 210,000 and 440,000 patients each year who go to the hospital for care suffer some type of preventable harm that contributes to their death.

That would make medical errors the third-leading cause of death in America, behind heart disease, which is the first, and cancer, which is second?."

This article was published quite a bit earlier so it's numbers are lower

http://www.webdc.com/pdfs/deathbymedicine.pdf
Here is a small excerpt from the PDF.

"THE FIRST IATROGENIC STUDY
Dr. Lucian L. Leape opened medicine's Pandora's box in his 1994 paper, ?Error in Medicine,? which appeared in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA).(16) He found that Schimmel reported in 1964 that 20% of hospital patients suffered iatrogenic injury, with a 20% fatality rate. In 1981 Steel reported that 36% of hospitalized patients experienced iatrogenesis with a 25% fatality rate, and adverse drug reactions were involved in 50% of the injuries. In 1991, Bedell reported that 64% of acute heart attacks in one hospital were preventable and were mostly due to adverse drug reactions.
Leape focused on the ?Harvard Medical Practice Study? published in 1991, (16a) which found a 4% iatrogenic injury rate for patients, with a 14% fatality rate, in 1984 in New York State. From the 98,609 patients injured and the 14% fatality rate, he estimated that in the entire U.S. 180,000 people die each year partly as a result of iatrogenic injury.
Why Leape chose to use the much lower figure of 4% injury for his analysis remains in question. Using instead the average of the rates found in the three studies he cites (36%, 20%, and 4%) would have produced a 20% medical error rate. The number of iatrogenic deaths using an average rate of injury and his 14% fatality rate would be 1,189,576??"

'nuther article? http://www.yourmedicaldetective.com/public/335.cfm

The book 'Death By Medicine.' http://www.whale.to/a/null9.html
http://www.sustainablemedicine.org/un-sustainable-medicine/death-by-medicine-iatrogenic-illness/
http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=481539

I never assume anything a medical pro says is Gospel and I only go to them when I have no choice.

I always check with alternatives first and then read lots. I have fixed lots of our issues this way.

KeyLargoBees · June 22, 2016, 01:32:09 PM

You guys might be missing the original posters point.....you can do what you wish with the information you gain....but to post advice for others based on your internet research...not so much. All he was asking is that you post your medical experience as part of your comment if you give medical/treatment advice.

iddee · June 22, 2016, 02:42:11 PM

Ace, NC has a good Samaritan law. As long as I do the best I can, the law protects. On the same basis, if I do the best I can, I can live with the results.

flyboy · June 22, 2016, 06:34:53 PM

Quote from: iddee on June 22, 2016, 02:42:11 PM
Ace, NC has a good Samaritan law. As long as I do the best I can, the law protects. On the same basis, if I do the best I can, I can live with the results.

Read the law. http://fmerithewlaw.com/good-samaritan-laws-and-north-carolinas/

If you hurt the neighbour's child, don't expect a pat on the back.

As the article states, these laws vary from state to state and countries as well. It's one thing to pull a person off of the middle of the freeway, or drag them out of a pool, but quite another to administer a needle.

KeyLargoBees · June 22, 2016, 06:57:34 PM

Its not like anyone uses the pen lightly FB.....if there aren't signs the person is going to DIE anyway you don't use it ...its not like its a casual preventative.

iddee · June 22, 2016, 07:21:40 PM

I've been through two episodes of Anaphylaxis shock, both concerning other people. I had and used the epi on the second one. If a third arises, Icertainly hope to have an epi handy.

PS. I have been through several epi-pen injection courses.

Acebird · June 22, 2016, 10:52:46 PM

Quote from: iddee on June 22, 2016, 02:42:11 PM
As long as I do the best I can, the law protects.

You are treading on the biggest fraternity in america "medical doctors". I would hate to see the reality of what you believe. I think you can wipe your butt on what you think the NC law is. Only a member of the fraternity can prescribe drugs and only a registered nurse can administer them with doctors orders unless you are directly related to the patient. If you give a controlled substance to someone that is unrelated you will be treated as a drug pusher. I hate to see you find out the hard way.
Parametics, EMT have some authority to administer drugs but usually there is a doctor calling the shots.

iddee · June 22, 2016, 11:01:06 PM

Opinions are like.........................................

Acebird · June 22, 2016, 11:06:21 PM

Yes, it is a discussion and they are opinions. I hope the best for you. Especially on the day you are not a hero.

iddee · June 22, 2016, 11:44:31 PM

The days I was will more than make up for it.

PhilK · June 23, 2016, 12:39:20 AM

Wow this thread sure went off topic.. it's pretty simple. Don't give medical device to people if you aren't a medical professional. You may have read stuff on the internet - great, good for you, you can use that knowledge as you see fit but don't go giving it as advice to other people if you aren't qualified to.

As an aside Ace, if you had an Epipen in your pocket and were with someone experiencing anaphylactic shock are you saying you wouldn't use it? What would you do? Watch them die while you call an ambulance? Put them in your car and try to get to a doctor or nurse to administer the Epipen for you?

splitrock · June 23, 2016, 07:00:52 AM

Knowing that doctor error and their alopathic form of medicine is the 3rd leading cause of death behind cancer, and heart disease, (as has been previously attested to).... and my wife being a traditional natural-path that has taught me a thing or two, I give good advice often, and no drugs are needed. :-)

MY dr. prescribes a pen for me, and I'm not allergic, but you can bet if it is needed by anyone, it will be offered to them. With all the hives I have and keep I would consider myself negligent if I didn't have one around.