Emergency cell swarm?

KeyLargoBees · June 27, 2016, 11:28:18 AM

I had a colony where the queen went MIA for some reason and they built emergency cells....were only 4 cells center frame on a single frame with foundation so short of scraping I had no way to transfer. I opted to let them all survive to increase the chance of getting one viable queen out of the deal since I have been burned in the past trying to play god and scraping "excess" queen cells....in any event once I saw the cells I did a thorough check on the hive and verified no additional eggs and no sign of the old queen. I left them alone to let them sort things out....and now this morning I have had two separate small swarms issue from the hive.

I am puzzled. I didn't think emergency cell queens would swarm out of a hive with workers in tow but I guess if they hatched at virtually the same time its possible. So now I have one of my production honey hives with reduced population and I guess its all part of the "expect the unexpected" motto I am adopting for 2016.

tjc1 · June 27, 2016, 11:43:56 AM

Hmmmm... 'expect the unexpected' might be becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy for you, Jeff

BeeMaster2 · June 27, 2016, 12:33:07 PM

Jeff,
Did you have 2 swarms or did you have a queen go out to make her mating flights and the bees swarmed out to saturate the air to protect her from the bee predators as she leaves the hive?
I caught a queen during one such mating flight and put the queen in a queen catcher in a nuc and was very surprised when the bees would not follow her into the nuc.
Jim

KeyLargoBees · June 27, 2016, 01:15:25 PM

I guess anything is possible Jim....but there were 2 distinct clusters up in this tree 40 feet up maybe 10 feet apart they swarmed out maybe 1.5 hours apart....no way to get to them to retrieve the. One of the clusters has now dissipated and the other didn't seem to grow so I don't think they merged so they either went back to the hive or moved off I couldn't tell which but the other is still there.....I set up an additional swarm trap and have heavy scout activity at both traps....and several empty hive boxes that have frames in them in storage so will most likely get them back its just odd the sequence of events.

I guess all these unexpected occurrences are part of working from home and having the home yard hives outside my window....looking at the hives now nothing is out of the ordinary so if I hadn't seen it happen i would be clueless to the events ever occurring ;-P

KeyLargoBees · June 27, 2016, 02:50:32 PM

They broke cluster and went into one of my traps so I got them back so all's well that ends well I guess.

swarmswapper · June 27, 2016, 05:52:57 PM

I have a question or two (new to this game so please be patient)
I recently pinched a queen and left 3 supercedure cells to allow them to 'work it out'. They should have hatched mid to end of last week so I am expecting mating flight soon?
In your case with 4 cells left and observing two swarms - are you thinking there were queens in each of the swarms? If so virgin queens (likely not?) I did not get the time frame from cells to swarm in your message so perhaps these were not virgin queens?

I have been anxious with respect to my set up and wondered if in fact there may be a swarm at some point vs a smooth transition to a new queen. this was a nuc this spring and I had placed the second deep on just prior to pinching the queen so there is lots of room in the hive.

thx
john

BeeMaster2 · June 27, 2016, 10:37:50 PM

Quote from: KeyLargoBees on June 27, 2016, 01:15:25 PM
I guess anything is possible Jim....but there were 2 distinct clusters up in this tree 40 feet up maybe 10 feet apart they swarmed out maybe 1.5 hours apart....no way to get to them to retrieve the. One of the clusters has now dissipated and the other didn't seem to grow so I don't think they merged so they either went back to the hive or moved off I couldn't tell which but the other is still there.....I set up an additional swarm trap and have heavy scout activity at both traps....and several empty hive boxes that have frames in them in storage so will most likely get them back its just odd the sequence of events.

I guess all these unexpected occurrences are part of working from home and having the home yard hives outside my window....looking at the hives now nothing is out of the ordinary so if I hadn't seen it happen i would be clueless to the events ever occurring ;-P

Jeff,
If the bees collect in the trees, it is a swarm, not a maiden flight.
Jim

BeeMaster2 · June 27, 2016, 10:49:57 PM

Quote from: swarmswapper on June 27, 2016, 05:52:57 PM
I have a question or two (new to this game so please be patient)
I recently pinched a queen and left 3 supercedure cells to allow them to 'work it out'. They should have hatched mid to end of last week so I am expecting mating flight soon?
In your case with 4 cells left and observing two swarms - are you thinking there were queens in each of the swarms? If so virgin queens (likely not?) I did not get the time frame from cells to swarm in your message so perhaps these were not virgin queens?

I have been anxious with respect to my set up and wondered if in fact there may be a swarm at some point vs a smooth transition to a new queen. this was a nuc this spring and I had placed the second deep on just prior to pinching the queen so there is lots of room in the hive.

thx
john

John,
If you had superseedure cells, why pinch the old queen. One of the new queens would have been selected and a little over a week later she would mate and start laying. The whole time her mother would be laying and then the 2 of them would be laying side by side.
This makes for a big recovery.
Jim

swarmswapper · June 27, 2016, 11:08:06 PM

Jim - the queen had been laying well since mid May and it looked like the nuc would do well but for some reason the hive did not take to her. They produced around 11 queen cells while she was still there. Some were typically mid frame some were swarm cell along the bottom of the frames. One frame had 8 cups several with larva in them.. this was while the hive was in a single deep. I did find a few eggs that seemed to placed somewhat hap hazardly in the bottom of a couple of cells and one close to the side wall -

I moved the queen along with some brood and honey up to a 2nd deep and separated the two with an excluder to allow the hive to rear a new queen below and let her continue to work the top box. She looked like a good queen but even after this move the bees started building queen cups and filling them with larva and jelly in the top box... My take on this was the bees know best and they are not happy with her so I removed her and all but 3 good looking cells in the bottom box, took out the excluder and well that's where I am now

KeyLargoBees · June 28, 2016, 10:12:24 AM

Jim,
The fact that they clustered on the branch in two separate spots is what led me to post about swarms in the first place ;-)

The cluster that ultimately moved into my swarm trap was considerably larger than the smaller one that dissipated....I am wondering if the small "pre swarm" merged and I just didn't see a noticeable difference in the size...in any event I am going to give it a few days and then peek and check for eggs in both the trapped swarm and the original hive to make sure all is well.

Michael Bush · June 28, 2016, 10:52:29 AM

>They should have hatched mid to end of last week so I am expecting mating flight soon?

Usually they are mated in two weeks from emerging. Sometimes it takes three weeks. They spend several days hardening. Several days orienting and then a day or two mating. And they usually wait for a nice day for the mating so they can fly a couple of miles away and not get caught in a storm.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmath.htm

swarmswapper · June 28, 2016, 08:01:05 PM

Interesting, thanks Michael.

If only we could see the dramas unfold! I assume then as I had left 3 queen cells the victor will be approaching the end of the hardening stage and close to orientation....

There has been some unusual activity around the upper entrance last two days, wash boarding is what I would describe this as. I have not seen this prior on any of the hives and this one is the only one to exhibit it so far. The bees almost look anxious and anticipating as they slide back and forth. I wonder if it has anything to do with Her activities inside and what is about to unfold!

Michael Bush · June 29, 2016, 01:39:27 PM

>If only we could see the dramas unfold!

You can. I have many times:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesobservationhives.htm

swarmswapper · June 29, 2016, 03:43:34 PM

Now there is a project I could enjoy! Maybe I could sell it as time spent in front of a new "flat screen".....

Michael Bush · June 30, 2016, 09:15:41 AM

It's the "bee channel" and it's cheaper than cable... and much more interesting.