Checkerboarding Honey Supers?

[Beeboy01]

Just though I'd post the question. I'm in a honey flow right now and would like to have the girls draw out some wax foundation in a few shallows. Would checkerboarding 3 or 4  frames into the new super with uncapped honey help get the bees to draw and fill the fresh foundation? I have a couple hives that have pretty much filled up the honey supers on them but I'm not quite ready to pull and extract yet. I know a lot will depend on how long the flow will last but will the checkerboarding help?
Thanks

[Michael Bush]

>Would checkerboarding 3 or 4  frames into the new super with uncapped honey help get the bees to draw and fill the fresh foundation?

Checkerboarding of any kind in a honey super is a bad idea.  If you have drawn comb interspersed with foundation, they will ignore the foundation and draw the drawn comb out fatter.  If you intersperse foundation with foundationless, they will build fat combs on the foundationless and ignore the foundation.  If you intersperse foundationless with drawn comb they will draw the drawn comb out fatter.  The thickness of these combs makes it impossible to remove the other frames, unless you flip the box upside down and remove the box first.

The reason for this is that honey comb can be any thickness.  Brood comb, on the other hand, has to be a specific thickness so it's not a problem when you do this in the broodnest as long as you don't spread them too thin where they can't keep the brood warm.

[Beeboy01]

Thanks, good explanation of what goes on in a hive. I'll just add the undrawn supers on top of the hives and let the bees do their thing.

[sc-bee]

>Would checkerboarding 3 or 4  frames into the new super with uncapped honey help get the bees to draw and fill the fresh foundation?

Checkerboarding of any kind in a honey super is a bad idea.

Checkerboarding of any kind a bad idea? What about foundation between completely capped honey frames? And I know you are aware of checkerboarding drawn comb in honey supers.

[Michael Bush]

>Checkerboarding of any kind a bad idea?

I said :"Checkerboarding of any kind in a honey super is a bad idea."

>What about foundation between completely capped honey frames?

It can work.  I've seldom done it, though.  Why not just harvest the honey?

> And I know you are aware of checkerboarding drawn comb in honey supers.

As a late winter manipulation to prevent swarming, it has it's proponents.  But I would not do it with the intent of getting anything drawn.  It's empty drawn comb and capped drawn comb which is why it doesn't end up a mess.

[sc-bee]

>Would checkerboarding 3 or 4  frames into the new super with uncapped honey help get the bees to draw and fill the fresh foundation?

Yes I did catch the honey super part... sorry I did not transpose that part I was actually not relating you comment to the time of year. I see now that is what you meant... I think. I was thinking of Walt Wright and CBing honey suppers.

[Colobee]

Maybe I'm missing something. I've read all of Walt Wright's articles on checker boarding. I've even re-read them to make sure I (think I) understand. He refers to alternating capped frames of honey with drawn comb. He began by doing so in the first super above the brood nest (a honey super). Later he experimented with checker boarding the middle of three boxes - breaking the brood nest into two parts - one above & one below. Again ONLY with alternating capped honey frames & drawn frames.

From: http://beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/...

"Checkerboarding is what we call removing frames 3, 5 and 7 of honey in the top hive body and feed box and substituting empty brood comb. The intent is to provide continuous storage cells to the super above; a perforation of their honey dome. The bees should not have much trouble maintaining their band of feed honey in the empty comb because honey is available in adjacent combs."

"Those of you who saw the April ABJ may remember that the second part of my swarm prevention program was checkerboarding empty frames in the overhead honey stores. This was done going into winter so that it was in place for the spring build-up."

"Checker boarding" with foundation should be given another name - a bad one, because it's a bad idea. Checker boarding in the brood nest should probably only be done after reviewing Walt's articles on the subject. Otherwise, one can likely do more harm than good.

I guess it's not hard to believe that the info has been around for over twenty years, and seems to have "morphed" into one of the most convoluted, misunderstood concepts around. There seems to be much more confusion than clarity on the subject.

Read the articles - DO IT RIGHT.

"The checkerboarding concept is so simple and so effective, I wonder how many thousands of beekeepers have taken it to their grave without divulging the secret to their contemporaries?"

[sc-bee]

Maybe I'm missing something. I've read all of Walt Wright's articles on checker boarding. I've even re-read them to make sure I (think I) understand. He refers to alternating capped frames of honey with drawn comb. He began by doing so in the first super above the brood nest (a honey super). Later he experimented with checker boarding the middle of three boxes - breaking the brood nest into two parts - one above & one below. Again ONLY with alternating capped honey frames & drawn frames.

No you are not missing anything. I took following statement above way too literal, "Checkerboarding of any kind in a honey super is a bad idea." It was in reference to checkerboarding foundation,  and I read it very literal, my apologies to all 

I have followed Walt closely for quite a few years. Walt Wrights checkerboarding only involves drawn comb and absolutely does not involve the brood chamber, AT ALL EVER...

I have posted on this forum many times about Walt's version of checkerboarding. Feel free to do a search. If you care to discuss Walt's method, it would be nice to have someone to discuss it with. One of my prize beekeeping items, is a hand written note from Walt before he became more computer savvy Walt was always eager to answer questions..

[Colobee]

No offense intended - I may have also taken the statement  "Checkerboarding of any kind in a honey super is a bad idea" too literally.

My understanding is that checkerboarding, as originally proposed by Walt, was done in the first honey super. Later variations included CB in the brood nest. The articles are rather long, and I found I that had to read them over ( & over) to clarify some of the concepts.

How fortunate of you to have a note like that from Walt.   

[Michael Bush]

Unfortunately the term "checkerboarding" is not used consistently.  If someone is asking about "checkerboarding" foundation and drawn comb, then it is not "checkerboarding" in the sense that Walt Wright intended it.  But it is often used to refer to any interspersing of two kinds of things in a hive including empty frames and brood, drawn comb and brood, empty frames and drawn comb, bare foundation and drawn comb, and even Walt's intention, drawn comb and capped comb.  In this context it was being used as foundation and uncapped honey.  The results of that are almost always fatter drawn comb with honey that protrudes into the space where the foundation is and unused foundation.

[sc-bee]

In this context it was being used as foundation and uncapped honey.  The results of that are almost always fatter drawn comb with honey that protrudes into the space where the foundation is and unused foundation.

Agreed... Thanks

[Acebird]

I don't know if Walt coined the phrase "checkerboarding" or not but there should be another term for alternating drawn comb with foundation or foundationless frames so the newbies don't get confused.  Maybe striping the supers would be an option.

[sc-bee]

I don't know if Walt coined the phrase "checkerboarding" or not but there should be another term for alternating drawn comb with foundation or foundationless frames so the newbies don't get confused.  Maybe striping the supers would be an option.

Walt actually called it nectar management when he started. Well not really a catchy term and don't roll off the tongue real good    Someone along the line coined it checkerbaording...

[Jim134]

Did not Walt only checkboard in the spring ?



             BEE HAPPY Jim 134. 

[rdy-b]

  checkerboarding is a great way to keep bees pushing forward in a honey supper--drawn comb is the golden
ticket in this senario--however itsa great way to build new comb evenly-also if its a mater of a fresh box of
foundation-even just a singel frame of drawn comb will pull bees up and start to draw out the new foundation faster--
baiting the supper---
checkerboarding is a technique for improved honey yeilds--and is not to be considered a brood box manipulation -it
simply wont work the same--its a great way to keep the bees pushing forward during a flow    RDY-B

[sc-bee]

Did not Walt only checkboard in the spring ?
BEE HAPPY Jim 134. 

That is correct 8 weeks before white wax. Drawn comb until white wax. After white wax foundation supers are good. Always stay two boxes ahead of the bees.

[rdy-b]

  two boxes of what--makes a big diferance-empty frames of drawn comb-in the true fashion two boxes that
are checkerboarded correctly give you a singel box of open comb--its the available space made open that push the bees --
what it dose is keeps the bees from chimineying up through the center -although i have seen a different effect when using
a inside feeder that is of two gallon size-this size feeder takes two frame space--the bees never push up and fill the frames
above the feeder--takes a Little more effort to move frames a round before second box is added-but on the other hand i think the whole point that walt was making was its the incomplete space above the bees that checerboarding created is what is the driving force that pushes them harder to fill a honey supper --over supering will not achieve the same results --wheather checerboarded or not-but where i chase honey is not a easy task- we supper one at a time--RDY in cali 

[Colobee]

I don't know if Walt coined the phrase "checkerboarding" or not but there should be another term for alternating drawn comb with foundation or foundationless frames so the newbies don't get confused.  Maybe striping the supers would be an option.

I'd vote for Beckerchoarding, since it's "bass-akwards" , and has been mentioned - usually just results in messed up comb and/or brood nest problems.

(Jim 134) "Did not Walt only checkboard in the spring ?"

No, one of the articles describes it as beginning with a fall manipulation.
Again, from: http://beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/checkerboarding-a-preliminary-update-on-my-swarm-control-method/

"Those of you who saw the April ABJ may remember that the second part of my swarm prevention program was checkerboarding empty frames in the overhead honey stores. This was done going into winter so that it was in place for the spring build-up."

In his articles, Walt refers to CB as a "swarm prevention technique". He sought to break the "honey dome" that confined the brood nest, by inserting 3 alternating frames of empty comb. In reviewing the results, he found that it not only reduced swarming, it dramatically increased honey yield - by encouraging the bees to expand the brood nest by more than 50%.

Would those of you who have taken the time to read the articles, please raise your hand? This is some pretty basic homework if you want to be a better beekeeper.

[Acebird]

I actually had two copies of his manuscript and gave one away.
It is not a spring manipulation it is a winter manipulation in my area.  8 weeks before white wax is the end of February here, our coldest month.  That is not something I wanted to try.  For me I think it is unnecessary in my location.  The honey dome is already eaten through by the bees.  They have more then enough room for expansion and they don't waste any time doing it if the hive is healthy.  I believe too many newbies have bee fever in the spring and jump in the hive too early up here.  And that starts off their struggle for the new season.

[sc-bee]

Colobee- rdy-b acebird- sorry long post but continue if you wish ;)

Colobee- all due respect I believe you need to look at the date on the article you are reading(posted). As you read his articles, you need to update your thought process along with Walt as he learned and adapted his system. Checkerboarding (updated version) is a before flow manipulation. Not a fall manipulation. Even some of his article diagrams were incorrect or undated according to Walt.

rdy-b- two boxes of what? It depends on where you are in the season. Two boxes of empty space above the brood chamber, after checkerbaording honey super. If it is before white was it is two empty boxes of drawn comb. If it is after white wax, which would be later in season, it is two empty boxes of foundation.
You mention a feeder. Walt did not feed unless an extreme emergency. He did write other article on other issues other than Cbing. One was on adding syrup in already drawn comb and feeding that way. But Walt was a proponent of leaving enough honey for the bees.

Acebird- You are correct. Calling it a spring manipulation is a bit of fudging. It is a pre-flow manipulation. And for all that is most likely not going to be quite Spring. For me white wax is usually around the second week of April. So I am looking at second week of February. And granted my Februarys are mild and sometimes spring like. Really spring like.
Walt acknowledged he had no idea if the system would work for Northern beeks and encouraged Northern beeks to try it. I heard of reports of a few that said it would work but they as northern beeks had to figure the time table out and implement the basic manipulations of the system adapted to their season. It is really not a weather/ temp dependent system but a colony development timing based system. The development just in most cases seems to be easily tied to temps and time of year.
As far as entering the hive in cold weather, it is a honey box manipulation and not a brood box manipulation. So you should not be chilling the brood etc.

All following-Walt was looking for a method of swarm prevention and stumbled on the fact that his technique to control swarms also encouraged a by-product of more nectar  being gathered. The concept paired with the phase of colony development works on the premise that bees see a ceiling and don't like open space and want to fill the ceiling. When bees see that ceiling then the reproduction instinct ( if year timing is right) kicks in and swarm preps begin, That is why it is always important in Cbing to stay two complete empty supers ahead of the bees.

Walts last wintering configuration based on the best I recall. If someone knows something different please let me know:

Honey super (shallow)
Honey super (shallow)
Brood Chamber (deep)
Pollen Box (Shallow)
-----------------------Bottom Board

After 1st manipulation it would look like this:


HEHEHEHEHE
EHEHHEHEHE
HHHHHHHHHH
BBBBBBBBBB
--------------- Bottom Board ( all the E's at this time are drawn comb... no foundation)
The system is intended to be one manipulation before flow and after that just stack boxes on top.

We have totally managed to hi-jack beeboys thread... sorry my apologies. If some would like to discuss Walt Wrights method of chekerboarding maybe we need to start a thread