Checkerboarding Honey Supers?

[rdy-b]

**You mention a feeder. Walt did not feed unless an extreme emergency. He did write other article on other issues other than Cbing. One was on adding syrup in already drawn comb and feeding that way. But Walt was a proponent of leaving enough honey for the bees.**

yes yes but the isue is why checkerboarding works as promoted by WR-its how bees react to open space above them--
the brood nest -the feeder is not part of the broodnest-it just happens to be in there taking up space--the bees dont reckinise the
open space directly above a feeder-they fill that space from the sides not straight up--this should suport the therory of checkerbparding from the view point of the bee--
location location location--where i stand its not that easy to just stack empty boxes and the bees fill them --you have a specal thing going if it sthat easy-- RDY-B

[sc-bee]

you have a specal thing going if it sthat easy-- RDY-B

Nothing is never that easy... always something right? I just explained the process I think the way WW wrote it.
I re-read the post about the feeder multiple times. It just went right over my head  But I am low to the ground and round    I am sure I am getting side tracked on the feeder thing.... yes it is the open space no ceiling effect you are looking for.

[rdy-b]

 whats the jest is --the same reason the bees don't work the two frames above the feeder is
exactly what supports the checkerboard therory--the bees dont recognize the frames above the feeder in the first box
only the unfilled comb over there head--its a bee thing-- RDY-B

[Acebird]

As far as entering the hive in cold weather, it is a honey box manipulation and not a brood box manipulation. So you should not be chilling the brood etc.

Yes, I understood right from the beginning that it IS a honey box manipulation and not a brood box manipulation but to break into a hive in very cold weather breaks up all the sealing that the bees have done in the fall and it is too cold in some areas of the hive to fix it after you have gone in.  If you try to do it 2-3 weeks prior to the flow when it is warmer you will gain nothing.  Some people wrap a hive up here, I don't, but that creates another problem.  I think these two reasons are why Walt's method was not welcomed with open arms up here.  The idea of striping a honey box (alternating drawn comb and foundation or foundationless) with the intention of drawing comb is not a new idea and it has nothing to do with Walt's checkerboarding although the term is commonly used for it.  Reference the topic title.

SC, how can you call it a hi jack when the term is used in the title?

[Colobee]

It's great to see this discussion. Checker Boarding, and the many variations, seems to come up rather regularly. All too often it is some variation involving alternating foundation, and the brood nest - some malignant mutation destined to cause more bad than good. I suppose someone might observe that it is one of my "pet peeves".

I've read the many WW articles. I've re-read them. I've referred back to them frequently. They are rather lengthy as a whole, and I've never had the time to read them all at one sitting, then sit and digest and contemplate them. I often quote Walt when some misguided alternate version is proposed - which seems to be just about every time it comes up. It's difficult to place everything into it's proper prospective, especially considering the quantity of information from Walt, alone.

The observation that it may work better in some places & some times certainly comes as no surprise. Not unlike just about any other technique in beekeeping - there's Florida beekeeping, and Montana beekeeping. Cali & Vermont - & everywhere in between, and all have local influences that affect the outcome of any approach.

Again - great discussion. If someone were to condense the actual Checker Boarding process as Walt developed and described it, it would get my vote for "Sticky" status!

[sc-bee]

As far as entering the hive in cold weather, it is a honey box manipulation and not a brood box manipulation. So you should not be chilling the brood etc.

Yes, I understood right from the beginning that it IS a honey box manipulation and not a brood box manipulation but to break into a hive in very cold weather breaks up all the sealing that the bees have done in the fall and it is too cold in some areas of the hive to fix it after you have gone in.  If you try to do it 2-3 weeks prior to the flow when it is warmer you will gain nothing.  Some people wrap a hive up here, I don't, but that creates another problem.  I think these two reasons are why Walt's method was not welcomed with open arms up here.  The idea of striping a honey box (alternating drawn comb and foundation or foundationless) with the intention of drawing comb is not a new idea and it has nothing to do with Walt's checkerboarding although the term is commonly used for it.  Reference the topic title.

SC, how can you call it a hi jack when the term is used in the title?

Acebird I agree totally. I do not know if it will work in colder climates and as I and you are totally aware ww was looking for folks to try the system and let him know. I know you participated in conversation with ww frequently over on the other site.  As in the "lier" thread. What did ww say, I never imagined my grammar would be corrected by an acebird 
At least I am guessing it is the same acebird as I am the same sc-bee

As far as hi-jacking the thread maybe not directly but as you said here the OP was not speaking of the ww checkerboarding and that is where we went. The OP was speaking of trying to get foundation drawn by alternating it in supers. I just did not want the OP to think his intention of the thread had been abandoned. Not sure the OP is even here anymore. That is all I was saying 

[sc-bee]

Again - great discussion. If someone were to condense the actual Checker Boarding process as Walt developed and described it, it would get my vote for "Sticky" status!

colobee- I was in contact with ww in the spring of 2014. I could not convince him to come over and join bbemaster but I was updating him on this thread in 2014. I was trying to get folks to try the system. If many did try they did not relay the information. ww's work or observations were dismissed by most/many seasoned beeks as it went against their prior learning. Some called it bologna... right acebird. He was trying to get through to the open minded new beek. One issue was many older beeks have/had been moving frames (in particular of brood) for many years and I guess called it checkerbaording. Thus the confusion and disagree sat in.  When ww system that did not involve brood frames got coined chekerboarding many found it offensive and were very out spoken about it. And I think ww could be a little stubborn on bending himself... and was trying to get the word out and was beat-up quite frequently. Some of the threads got a little heated...

ww explanations get way too deep for me (his NASA engineering background) and  many disagreed with his concept and description of the why's in relation to bee behavior as he observed and recorded. I really did not get hung up on the whys you can perform the manipulation, it can be done just knowing the hows.

Here is the 2014 post. In it you will find a cold weather beek that was using it. Not sure if now. The beek is beewrangler-dennis. I am not sure if the bee wranglers link still works, he has changed domains a few times?

http://www.beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=43892.0

[sc-bee]

No the bee wrangler linlk is an old domain. I will see if I can locate his new one.

[Acebird]

As in the "lier" thread. What did ww say, never imained his grammar would be corrected by an acebird 

I vaguely remember that golden moment.  It had to happen by accident :-)  But I can tell you I did enjoy Walter's discussions probably more so then he thought.  I do not like that discussions have turned his methods into something he was not arguing for and I whole heartily respect his engineering background and his trouble conveying his message to others.  He was by far the most civil person I met on the other side discussing opposing views.  I do miss him.  Can't say that for most of the other side.

Beemaster's has changed since I first joined, for the better.  There does not appear to be a lot of moderation and people are much more civil to other peoples views.  I don't know why it changed but I like it.  It is what a forum should be.  Discussions without repercussions.

[sc-bee]

Beemaster's has changed since I first joined, for the better.  There does not appear to be a lot of moderation and people are much more civil to other peoples views.  I don't know why it changed but I like it.  It is what a forum should be.  Discussions without repercussions.

Agreed... as long as folks don't get personal the Mods pretty well stay out of sight... but they are here As John often states... agree to disagree. Folks here seem to get along pretty well
Good group of moderators also.

[PhilK]

Picture this scernario - I did my inspection the other day to find a lot of fully capped honey frames in the super that I could remove. I didn't have any drawn comb to replace them with, only foundation. I placed foundation frames between fully capped honey frames.. only afterwards I thought to myself that this might not be the best idea, but it's been done now. Is this likely to cause a problem?

[rdy-b]

 **Again - great discussion. If someone were to condense the actual Checker Boarding process as Walt developed and described it, it would get my vote for "Sticky" status!**

the links to the articles he produce are here---  http://beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/
http://beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/checkerboarding-works/
http://beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/checkerboarding-a-preliminary-update-on-my-swarm-control-method/
http://beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/nectar-management-101/

nectar managment is what is the comon denominator-- --RDY-B

[Acebird]

I placed foundation frames between fully capped honey frames.. only afterwards I thought to myself that this might not be the best idea, but it's been done now. Is this likely to cause a problem?

It is more likely to prevent a problem of messed up comb.

[Michael Bush]

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesexperiment.htm

It would be better if you read Walt's manuscript, but I'll give a synopsis of the idea of checkerboarding here. Remember this is an oversimplification.

For a bee colony:
o  Survival is the primary motivation
  - Survival of the existing colony takes priority.
  -  Bees will not do a reproductive swarm if they perceive it to jeopardize survival of the existing colony.
o  Survival of the species runs a close second.
  -  Generation of a reproductive swarm is the secondary objective of every over-wintered colony.
  -  The over-wintered colony expands the brood volume during the build-up by consumption of honey.
  -  When the colony has expanded the brood nest to the amount of reserve that they consider appropriate, they are now able to move into the swarm preparation phase.
  -  The first activity of swarm preparation is to reduce the brood volume by providing additional stores. As brood emerges, selected cells are filled with nectar or pollen.
  -  Alternating empty drawn combs above the brood nest "fools" the bees into thinking they don't have enough stores yet for swarming and causes them to expand the brood nest, giving both a bigger field force and avoiding reproductive swarming.

To put some of this another way, the colony goes through different goals at different times.

A new swarm starts out with the goal of getting established. They draw a lot of comb and try to expand the brood nest as much as possible to get established and then they go into winter preparation, which is trying to store sufficient stores for the winter. If they accomplish all of this and get over crowded they might cast a swarm to relieve the population problem.

The next year the hive will start out with the goal of reaching a safe position to cast a reproductive swarm. That means the population has to build up enough to afford to lose that many bees and the stores have to be high enough for them to lose that many foragers. Then they go into swarm preparation mode and start backfilling the brood nest. At some point, which Walt calls the Reproductive swarm cut-off, they decide they will or won't swarm.

The goal of Checkboarding is to keep them in the build-up phase until after Reproductive swarm cut-off by making them think they don't have enough stores and giving the brood nest room to expand.

If you look at your bees and your blooms and your climate, this Reproductive cut-off is usually the peak of the apple blossoms or a week after the apples START to bloom. The time to do Checkboarding is 9 weeks before that. That's about when the Elm blooms or four weeks before the Maples bloom or five weeks before the Redbud blooms or eight weeks before the apples start blooming or ten weeks before the black locust starts blooming. Hopefully you have some idea when one of those blooms in your location. NOTE: in theory these are all ways of pinpointing the same stage of vegetative development, they are just different reference points to figure it out for your location, I'm just listing all the different blooms in case you know when one of them is to calculate from.

At that time (9 weeks before Reproductive cut-off/the peak of the apple blossoms) you checkerboard. You put alternating frames of capped honey and empty drawn comb above the brood nest.

[sc-bee]

Thanks MB for the synopsis

[Colobee]

You're doing a great job over on the CB Synopsis Thread, Sc-Bee - Kudos! I haven't had the time to read through it, yet, but rest assured, I will. Thanks, again!

Hopefully that thread can continue to be "just the facts, Jack" & no miscellaneous Q&A & comments & variations & etc.. So it can be left a short but very informative "Sticky".   

[Beeboy01]

So much for a simple question, great discussion about how, when and why to checkerboard in a hive. Got my answer early on which is why I've been lurking not posting. Thanks All

[sc-bee]

Got my answer early on which is why I've been lurking not posting. Thanks All