Top entrances - brood nest on top, empty comb on bottom

[Duane]

I have top entrances and I noticed in more than one of the hives with two boxes, the brood is in the top box and the bottom box has mostly empty comb.  I suppose it could make sense if bees want the brood near the entrance.  But anyway, I believe I need to feed them.  So should I switch boxes so the empty comb is on top and then place an extra box on top of that to feed?

An interesting note, there's one hive, with lots of bees hanging on the outside, with some new white comb drawn.  I hope they're not robbing it from the others.  The weaker ones have a reduced entrance and I've never noticed robbing attacks.

[divemaster1963]

IV noticed at times on feral hives during cutouts that they well have brood comb closer to entrance and the food stores further back. I would just feed them. What are temps running. They may move brood area down when temps lower to keep them away from air flow. The new comb could be getting ready for fall flow if you have one. Is the comb outside boxes or in unused area of hive?

John

[MikeyN.C.]

D. I've never used just top entrance,  but would think that feral hives will build up or down depending on situation.

[BeeMaster2]

Most feral hives build down fro the inside top of the hollow tree. the brood chamber usually moves down as it grows. 
When they build inside our buildings, usually in shallow spaces, they usually build from the entrance back.  In vertical walls, again they build down.
You do not need to move them down to feed them but for winter, if they do not move their honey over the brood, you will probably want to rearrange it so that the honey is over the brood so that as they use their food they can move up into a new feed source where their heat has already warmed it up.
Jim

[Duane]

I see I kind of merged my one sentence.  I was trying to say one hive was doing well with lots of bees hanging outside.  Inside they were drawing white comb.

Thanks all for the advice.  I will feed as they are and check before winter.

[Duane]

After some negative degree days a week ago or so, it got up to 52 today and I had been noticing one hive did not have bees flying in and out.  I looked in and gobs of dead bees.  This is the hive that was drawing new comb, it didn't have swarm cells nor did I split it, they started a third box drawing comb but no honey, and had some honey in the second last I looked before winter.  The bottom box, while not full of honey, had quite a bit on most of the frames.  But the bees in the second box up had their heads in the cells, and the ones above them were trying to get their heads in, all packed tightly together, and all dead.

Did I mess up?  Should I have had moved the bottom box up, or a different year and they might have been fine?  Of course too late now, but trying to learn for next time.  And do bees make mistakes like this?  An accident or a weeding out of those who genetically make bad choices?  I'm worried about the original box I was asking about now.  After I fed them, their second box had quite a bit of capped sugar water in it.

[Acebird]

Did I mess up?

Very hard to say.  You make no mention of a queen.  Did this hive swarm in August and the virgin not make it back?  Bees in the top of a hive is not unusual if the top box is full of honey.  If it has brood in it by August or empty comb something is a miss and I would say it is too late to fix it.

[Duane]

Am I understanding that by August, if they have brood in the top box, something is wrong, and there's no point in trying to correct it?  Such as swapping boxes and feeding a lot?  I had forgotten about sawdstmakr's advice about making sure honey is above them before going into winter.  Might that have worked?

Anyway, another warm day or two, and I see bees flying in and out.  Since I know it's dead, I try my best to distinguish between that hive and my others.  I see bees sitting at the entrance, I see them grooming one another, and it looks like some are fighting and defending the entrance.  I see no difference between it and the others.  So I get a veil and open it up, and yes, they are still dead.  Probably just being robbed out what little bit was left (I had divided up most of the honey in the bottom box). 

I found it interesting, that if I hadn't been paying much attention, I would have thought all the boxes were still good, and come spring, suddenly it's dead and not know why.  Is there no way to tell from the entrance activity whether a box is dead or alive?  What am I failing to observe?

[Acebird]

Well in my case it is obvious.  We have cold clustering temperatures for more than a month.  When it warms up to flying temperatures the bees are out in full force except for the dead hives, there is nothing.  They ones that are out are relieving themselves.  They cannot rob from the dead hive because the honey is too cold yet.
In my case I could completely take apart the dead hive and do whatever.  No smoke, no protection at all even though there are thousands of bees in the air from the other hives.  Occasionally you will get a bee to land on a frame or yourself and you can just shake or blow them off.  They don't sting or head butt you.
So as soon as you get clustering temperatures robbing has ended.  If you see bees at the entrance most likely the hive is alive.  This is my observation.

[Duane]

I'm trying to second guess myself and think I didn't look at it, but I had that whole hive apart, attempted to shake the bees out of the comb, gave up until later and took the honey out, left the dead bees, and put it back together.  When I peeked in after seeing activity, the dead bees still had their head in the cells not moving.  I do keep thinking maybe they are alive, but there's just no way.  Or they were really dormant in slow motion when the others are out flying about and I had all the frames out looking at them.

[Acebird]

Just take the frame and gently tap it against a tree trunk.  Most will fall out and none will fly away.  They are as dead as they will get.

[Michael Bush]

>I have top entrances and I noticed in more than one of the hives with two boxes, the brood is in the top box and the bottom box has mostly empty comb.

This is normal whether you have top or bottom entrances.  I ask people here in Nebraska and they all say that's normal here.  I asked a group of 240 beekeepers in Iowa if they saw the same there and 3/4 of them raised their hands...

[Duane]

So back in August, should I have tried to rearrange them?  Or wait until just before winter?  It seemed to have caused a serious problem with no honey above them.

[Michael Bush]

>So back in August, should I have tried to rearrange them?  Or wait until just before winter?

How would moving all of their stores around help them to find them...?

[Duane]

Oh.  I guess I was thinking of the one that died, if I had moved the honey from the bottom box above them in August, they could move into it.  As far as the one with no stores below them, I had fed them.  Still not much in the bottom, and I have put dry sugar above them.  I will check today when it's supposed to get above 60.

So what should I do when they are in the top box with brood?  The end result of the one box is they died with honey below them.  Unless this is just a happenstance, or a weeding out of the week, I can't help thinking something done differently would be a different outcome than dead.

[Acebird]

So what should I do when they are in the top box with brood?  The end result of the one box is they died with honey below them.  Unless this is just a happenstance, or a weeding out of the week, I can't help thinking something done differently would be a different outcome than dead.

My guess is something went wrong in the feeding back in August.  The brood nest could have got plugged.  No where except up for the queen to lay and she wasn't done yet.  I am not a feeding guru but I think that the queen needs to cut back or stop before you do the heavy feeding to back fill.  Were you using the right ratio?

[Michael Bush]

Sometimes bees die of indecision.

"Be decisive. Right or wrong make a decision, The road of life is paved with flat squirrels who couldn't make a decision."

[Duane]

Yes, I was using 2:1 sugar.  They had two boxes without much honey.  Would they backfill the brood nest before filling the box they weren't in?

I like that about the flat squirrels.  Sometimes I feel like that trying to decide things.

Now here's another issue.  I had divided up the honey from that hive and placed frames right over the brood nest of another box.  Today I look in and there's some bees with their heads in a frame off to the side, a few others here and there in patches, but right above the nest nice capped frames of honey.  In the lower box, lots of bees with their heads in the cells, dead.  I have a hard time seeing in the comb, but I couldn't see any new brood in there.  So they could have moved up.  And there was honey on the other side of the frame most were on.  And off and on between when I added and today, there were some halfway warm days they could have moved stores around.  At least I would think so, but maybe the bees didn't.

Is this another case of, sometimes these things happen?  Don't know what I could have done differently there.

[Acebird]

They can't move the honey if the honey is 40 degrees. It doesn't matter what the air temperature is.   No different than trying to feed them syrup at 40 degrees.   They can move it a short distance if the cluster is on it because within the cluster it is 90 degrees.  It is not that the bees are stupid but they can only do what they can do.  I would consider the bees stupid if you didn't do anything but if you go in the hive and start shifting things around at the end of the season you better know what you are doing because two cooks spoil the broth.

[Acebird]

Would they backfill the brood nest before filling the box they weren't in?

Is this a trick question?  If they are in a box it is the brood nest.  It doesn't matter what you think it is.