An issue of confinement ...

[little john]

Although I've never experienced any difficulty with the making-up of nucs in stand-alone boxes, whenever I've used divided nuc boxes, or have placed a nuc close to a queen-right colony, I've frequently experienced abandonment - usually partial, but sometimes total.

I mentioned this in passing to a commerical beekeeping friend of mine, who then kindly supplied me with several useful leads from his extensive stock of literature.  I then proceeded to examine as many of my own sources as possible, and to save typing out a whole new explanation - this is a copy of my recent email to him:

I'm now *cautiously* optimistic that I've found the cause of the absconding which I and several others have recently experienced.

It appears to be an issue of confinement. Many books and beekeepers who discuss the making-up of nucs either make no reference at all to confinement, or make an oblique reference to it in passing, such that it's importance is never highlighted.

What further clouds the issue is that it is perfectly possible to make-up stand-alone nucs, or splits, quite successfully without recourse to any confinement.

It would appear that the problem of absconding tends to manifest itself (and then, not always) when multiple nucs are made from queenright colonies (either with combs and adhering bees, or from shaken-out nurses), and then placed very close to each other - as would occur with divided boxes or queen castles.  The bees then, quite reasonably, have the urge to cluster together (or seek-out a mated queen if possible) to reduce the insecurity of the sudden queenlessness being experienced.  Where brood is present, they then have divided loyalties, and some may abscond but not all - further muddying the waters.

Under these circumstances (i.e. nucs made directly or indirectly from queenright colonies), a short period of confinement is generally considered necessary in order to allow the bees to adjust to the uncomfortable sensation of sudden queenlessness.  Some authors specify 24 hours, others 48 hrs or even 3 days.

My own feeling on this now is: if in any doubt, confine for 3 days anyway - as this delay is small beer when compared with the effort put into the rearing of queens and the making-up of nucs.

Now such confinement may cause problems for those in warm countries during summer - hence the need to either ventilate the nuc, or place either in the shade or in a cool cellar.  Indeed, some books appear to give greater emphasis on the placement in a cellar than to the duration of that placement. Hence the ensuing confusion which this can create.

Here's one example: "The nuc is then stored in the dark for 3-5 days so that they form a ?unity? before being set out in the mating apiary at dusk."

This is the kind of muddled advice which results from not understanding WHY the nuc is being confined.  Yes, a cellar is 'dark' - but it's the coolness of the cellar which is desirable with a poorly ventilated nuc during confinement.  An OMF with the nuc kept out of direct sunlight would do exactly the same job.  And as for "forming a 'unity' " - well that's just another way of saying "I'm not sure of the reason why we do this, we just do - and it works."

Actually, if you read the above advice *as a whole* - you could come away with the false impression that 'darkness' is THE essential feature in the making-up of nucleus colonies successfully.

Hope the above proves useful to anyone who has experienced abandonment when using bees from queenright colonies when making-up nucs in other than stand-alone boxes.  Although it's pretty simple and straightforward stuff once attention is drawn to it, if I missed this - then maybe other people have too.  Next season can't some quick enough, so I can put this to the test.
LJ

[Acebird]

What are you suggesting LJ?  Putting your splits in the cellar for three days to get them to unity?
I have never experience an abscond from splitting my hives and placing them inches apart.

[little john]

What are you suggesting LJ?  Putting your splits in the cellar for three days to get them to unity?
I have never experience an abscond from splitting my hives and placing them inches apart.

Where did I say that ?  What I did say was:  "Hope the above proves useful to anyone who has experienced abandonment when using bees from queenright colonies when making-up nucs in other than stand-alone boxes. "

"I have never experience an abscond"  So the post doesn't apply to you then ...
LJ

[divemaster1963]

I like the idea that you are presenting. I haven't had the issue to the point yet but have had a friend who did. he had a small yard of about 15 hives and had about half of the splits absconded as you stated. when we found his solution he did not have the ability to confine the nucs for a time in the dark and cool. what we came up with was using a secondary location for the nucs that was heavily covered with trees.  we also confined for two days so  basically using the same technique. after the time we opened them for a week then returned them to his yard. this reduced the problem to manageable levels.( form more than half to two or three.) we also found that the timing of the splitting was critical. not to due the splits when the flow is in full but as soon as the flow starts or week before. the timing seem to be a larger factor than we thought. we had more absconding when the flow was on full flow even when returning the nucs to the yard. have you had any different outcome or any suggestions other than what we found?


john

I am enjoying the books. they returned me to work with no use of my right arm. so just sitting and reading the day away.

[Rurification]

LJ - This makes sense based on my experience last year.    Even though each split had a queen cell, most of them went home to mama - and pretty quickly.    I'm guessing that some genetic strains are more prone to that than others.   

[Acebird]

"I have never experience an abscond"  So the post doesn't apply to you then ...
LJ

There is always a first so when a topic comes up I like to understand what the post is saying.
"Other than stand alone boxes"  So this occurs when multiple nucs are in one box?

[Michael Bush]

As long as there is open brood in the split and I shake in extra bees I've never had an issue.

[BeeMaster2]

Thanks for the info LJ.
I have had a lot of problems with splits absconding. I will try this the next time along with your other idea of placing them on top of a queen right hive. I plan to feed them 1 to 1 during the 3 days that they are locked into ensure they have enough food and water.
Jim

[little john]

"I have never experience an abscond"  So the post doesn't apply to you then ...
LJ

There is always a first so when a topic comes up I like to understand what the post is saying.
"Other than stand alone boxes"  So this occurs when multiple nucs are in one box?

Ok Brian - understood.

Apologises for the delay in replying, I've only just stumbled across some info which appears relevant.

The explanation I had for bees absconding from divided nucs and from stand-alone nucs placed very close together, was centred around the concept of 'insecurity trauma' which I believe all bees experience when a queenright colony is suddenly made queenless, and which provokes the subsequent urge to either re-join a larger cluster of bees, and/or preferably the company of a laying queen.

This idea first came about when I read and compared Doolittle's first and second methods of making nuclei.  This is the first (in my note form - with one key phrase missing):
Pull 1x frame of brood + bees and 1x frame of honey + bees from a Queenright hive, place into nuc box, and then confine bees for 48hrs [...].  Donate Q/Cell and release at dusk.

This method could well be described as being a 'standard' method, for it features with only slight variations in texts by Manley, Miller's Thousand Answers, ABC-XYZ and others, and even in the German Heather Skep Apiary Video 4: 'Work in the Cast Swarming Period'.

However, unlike Doolittle, the above authors provide no reason for confining the bees (which is usually for 3 days).  Doolittle's explanation is: "... and then confine bees for 48hrs "to prevent them from returning to the old site".  I shall be returning to this observation in just a moment.

Now Doolittle's second method differs from the first in several ways, (again, given here in my note form):
Make a colony queenless and use that colony to make Q/Cells.
When Q/Cells are capped, add multiple frames of hatching brood and add Q/Cells to the combs.
Then, 1-2 days before emergence, pull 1x frame of brood with Q/Cell + bees and 1x frame of honey and place into nuc box. Use division board to adjust box volume.  Confinement is unnecessary.

The most obvious differences here then are 'queenless rather than queenright', 'earlier Q/Cell donation', and 'confinement versus no confinement'.

A 'foreign' Q/Cell donated very late during the nuc-making process (as in Doolittle's method 1) may possess a smell very different to that of the host bees. As such, that Q/Cell may be considered undesirable and thus not provide an 'anchoring' function, and so I suggest that these three differences are all related, and support the idea of traumatic insecurity caused by the event of sudden queenlessness which can then lead to absconding - that is, if the bees can detect other bees (or preferably a queen) nearby, such as would occur with divided nucs and from stand-alone nucs placed very close together.

The final piece of supporting evidence was only unearthed last night, and came from:
http://bees.library.cornell.edu/b/bees/browse/articles/arts-donohowilliamh.html
(which BTW, is a 'gold-mine' of information, and well-worth visiting).

Here's a clip from one ABJ article, dated 15th June, 1899

"During my nearly 30 years of experience of forming nuclei with bees taken from a colony having a queen and putting them on a frame or two of brood and honey, it has been a great mystery to me how nearly every one will get back to the old hive, altho[sic] apparently half of those carried to the nucleus have never flown from the old hive before.  But such is the fact, and it is useless to take bees from their mother and put them into a hive having combs of brood only[,] expecting them to stay, unless they are fastened to the hive or some precaution taken to make them stay "where put". "

I've added a comma after 'only' to emphasise that word, and the real interest here for me is not the "precaution taken" (which could be either confinement, or the donation of a ripe Q/Cell) - but the absconding behaviour of nurse bees taken from a queenright colony (and no doubt traumatised by such sudden queenlessness), which I find quite extraordinary as we normally think of nurses as being a dutiful and obedient workforce, incapable of such decisive behaviour.  Or maybe it's just another example of 'herding behaviour' and they are simply following the foragers ... ?

But whatever the truth of the matter, absconding by nurse bees as well as foragers IS a recorded phenomenon.

I hope the above is of interest to anyone puzzled by absconding/abandonment, and that the above may offer some clues, or at least a starting point for further enquiry. 
LJ

[texanbelchers]

I wonder if the nurse bees actually get back to the old hive location or just to another hive.  I have shaken nurse bees inches away from an entrance and watched them march a foot+ down the stand to another hive.  My assumption is they preferred the laying queen hive over the virgin queen hive.

This may be some of the logic in having a nuc yard where the colonies are all very similar.

[Acebird]

As long as there is open brood in the split

I think we should listen to this man.  If you are worried about a split absconding then throw some open brood in the box.  There should be some in the box to begin with.  It doesn't appear to me based on the splits that I have done that it takes very long for the bees to recognize that they have lost their laying queen.  Whether it is instinct or the lost queen committee making a decision, shortly after recognizing that they lost their laying queen they will pick  larvae out to make new ones.  If they don't have larvae that they could make one or two I can see them booking but if they do they will stay put and act like a normal colony.  This is my experience, however minuscule it is.

[Rurification]

As long as there is open brood in the split

I think we should listen to this man.

I'll second that.   I've been thinking a lot about why my nuc splits don't take as well as my regular splits and I'm pretty sure it's the quantity of open brood I've got in there.   I've never had a problem with a hive I've just split in half.   Plenty of open brood in each box.  The one without a queen always makes one. 

Thanks again LJ for posting on this topic.   It's made me think.   And thanks everyone else for contributing.  I may become an adequate beekeeper yet.

[JackM]

Oh definitely listen to Mr. Bush.  Additionally, I find much more success in my yard by splitting the queen OUT into the other hive.  The original hive makes it's new queen, very little absconding.  Split gets the queen with brood and workers, up to 2 frames.  If I do it that way, I don't have a problem. 

Conversely, if I do a split by just taking brood and a bunch of nurse/workers, because I can't find the queen, I probably loose 35-70% of the bees and they don't always make emergency queen cells.  Most of the time they do, but then there are so few bees left it seems like the hive will die off.

For what that all is worth, that is my observations with my hives.

[Acebird]

I have shaken nurse bees inches away from an entrance and watched them march a foot+ down the stand to another hive.  My assumption is they preferred the laying queen hive over the virgin queen hive.

Were these nurse bees attached to open brood comb and then the open brood comb was added to the nuc?

[little john]

Solution to (my) Problem - short version:

Colonies in stand-alone mating nucs not well-anchored and thus have urge to abscond, but can't due to large distances (10-20ft) between boxes.  Success is therefore illusory.

When using divided nucs, distance between mating nuc colonies is then reduced from 10-20ft to a few inches, at which point colonies abscond.  Underlying problem thus revealed.

The solution is therefore to enhance anchoring of colonies - such as confinement for 3 days, as recommended by countless seasoned beekeepers from the 19th Century:

Our bees have to be confined at least three days of twenty-four hours each before they will stay where they are put. We have tested this thing over and over again, hundreds of times, and it is our practice to shut the entrances up tight and keep them closed for at least three days.  Phillips, 'Modern Queen Rearing'.

LJ

[little john]

As long as there is open brood in the split

I think we should listen to this man. 

Fancy then explaining how some beekeepers are successfull when using mating nucs without brood, and even without combs ?  But they do confine those colonies in order to 'anchor' them.
LJ
 

[Michael Bush]

>Fancy then explaining how some beekeepers are successfull when using mating nucs without brood, and even without combs ?  But they do confine those colonies in order to 'anchor' them.

I've tried it and I have no idea how they get it to work.  I didn't.  Confining has never really done well in my experience.  Bees do not do well confined.

[little john]

>Fancy then explaining how some beekeepers are successfull when using mating nucs without brood, and even without combs ?  But they do confine those colonies in order to 'anchor' them.

I've tried it and I have no idea how they get it to work.  I didn't. 

Couldn't agree more - yet this has become the BIG trend ....

Instructions for the Kieler Mating Hive - a typical mini-mating box, which uses starter strips only:
Adding the Queen Cell
Some beekeepers add the queen cell straight after filling the mating hives and then leave them in a dark cool place for 4 days before taking them to the mating site, timing things so the queen will have emerged about 24 hours before the hives are moved.  The technique we use is to add the queen cell after the bees have been in the hive for 3 days and then take them to the mating site the next day.  The advantage of this is the queen cell will be more robust when it is handled.   (ex. Modern Beekeeping .co.uk)

I have tried a home-made Kieler-type box and also a Klindworth nuc-box (both using starter strips only) - both 100% failure, but then I wasn't confining as recommended.  Might try them again, now that I've spotted the procedural error.
LJ