ARE 9 FRAMES in the BROOD

BeeHopper · May 01, 2006, 08:50:51 PM

CHAMBERS OK, or 10 Frames required ?? During the hiving of the packages, I could not fit the 10th frame into the deep because of the queen cage and the bees, so I left it out for 7 days for the girls to adjust. When it was time to remove the queen cage, I noticed the workers did a pretty darn good job in building out the 3 middle foundations because they were a little farther apart than normal. I could not fit in the last frame without crushing them, so I left it out again, only this time the 9 frames are evenly spaced. What is the downside to 9 frames in the brood chamber other than a lower comb count ??

Romahawk · May 01, 2006, 11:47:03 PM

I don't know about all the downsides of 9 frames but I have 10 frames in the bottom brood box and 9 in the top brood box and what a mess it was when I opened it the other day. There is all kinds of burr comb built up between the frames and up into the space between the frames from the bottom box into the top box. My question for anyone is can I take that top brood box and move it up by putting a putting a super of foundation between the top and bottom box with out causing more problems. I figure if I can raise it up and use it for a honey super I can straighten out the mess this fall. My concern is will the queen move onto the foundation and let the top box hatch out and then have the workers use it for honey storage.. Hope I'm making sense here.. :D

thegolfpsycho · May 02, 2006, 01:03:55 AM

If you seperate the brood by putting a box of foundation between them, they sometimes raise another queen. Then you have a different problem. The queen cages I've recieved lately will fit between the top bars with a little effort. They have been coming out of a bank, so it's individual queens in small cages, in containers with serveral dozen workers to feed them all. A miniature battery box. Take and cut a notch out of one top bar and stick with the 10 frames. It saves alot of wasted effort by the bees.

As far as moving up alot of messed up comb, personally, I would probably pull it out service after any brood in it has emerged and fix it. Small things tend to grow when ignored, so my own practice has been to take the loss early. They usually recover and do well in spite of my efforts to help them.

Jack Parr · May 02, 2006, 08:12:59 AM

Quote from: RomahawkI don't know about all the downsides of 9 frames but I have 10 frames in the bottom brood box and 9 in the top brood box and what a mess it was when I opened it the other day. There is all kinds of burr comb built up between the frames and up into the space between the frames from the bottom box into the top box. My question for anyone is can I take that top brood box and move it up by putting a putting a super of foundation between the top and bottom box with out causing more problems. I figure if I can raise it up and use it for a honey super I can straighten out the mess this fall. My concern is will the queen move onto the foundation and let the top box hatch out and then have the workers use it for honey storage.. Hope I'm making sense here.. :D

You can mix and match. Remove the top box, place your new box in place then select any frames with brood from the removed box, place those into the new box with new foundation. Then place the queen excluder on the new box, place the old box with frames of honey and new foundation on the excluder. There will probably be some pollen mixed with the honey but that should not be a problem.

You didn't say where the majority of the brood was, in the bottom brood box or the upper box? I am also assuming that you are talking about all deep boxes?

Yes, you are making sense and I just did what I explained above. Bear in mind that if the bees fill the deep above the excluder with nectar you will have between 80 - 100 lbs to manhandle. Also the staked deeps will be 27 " high ? above the bottom board, above the hive stand.

Sometime the bees build comb that will make you sing with joy and other time make you mad. Ya neva kno wat dem bees will do.

I have found that 10 frames work best in the brood box and 9 in the honey supers. I am aggressive in removing any comb I don't like where I don't want it. Seems to work best that way for me.

Hope this helps and makes sense :?:

Michael Bush · May 02, 2006, 09:01:30 AM

Some people run 9 in the brood box and love it. In my experiece the brood comb will be uneven with 9. There will be protruding parts that are honey. I've gotten thes in a position where they block emerging brood if I'm not careful to get them back the way they were. I prefer to shave the frames down and put 11 in a ten frame box. 1/16" off each side of the end bars will make 1 1/4" spacing (32mm) which will fit 11 in a 10 frame box or 9 in an eight frame box. (which is what I've now gone to).

I get an extra frame of brood. Smaller cells drawn. Less messed up comb. Less protruding bits of capped honey.

I prefer to space them 1 1/2" or more in the supers AFTER they are drawn. Before they are drawn that much room just lets them mess things up.

Romahawk · May 02, 2006, 09:29:12 AM

Thanks for the responses. I think I messed up when I put the 9 frame top box back together. I tried to slide the frames back together and some of the frames were real fat with honey, I think I may have pushed them to close together. The brood cells didn't protrude as far as the cells filled with honey so I think I'll wait a day and go out and try to spread them out just a bit. Most of the brood is in the bottom box, they are both deeps and the top 9 frame box is pretty heavy. I have a beekeeper who has 8 hives about a half mile away as the bee flies and he has 7 dead ones which I think my bees are robbing. I am going to add a couple of deeps tomorrow for supers and I think I am going to move the 9 frame hive body up. If I do and they make queen cells will the old queen move up and destroy them or will they hatch and fight?

Michael Bush · May 02, 2006, 01:20:51 PM

Once you have 9 frames in the brood nest you cant go back to ten unless you uncap all the honey back down to the level of the brood. I would not do this when there are bees and brood on the frame.

BeeHopper · May 02, 2006, 07:41:02 PM

Quote from: Michael BushSome people run 9 in the brood box and love it. In my experiece the brood comb will be uneven with 9. There will be protruding parts that are honey. I've gotten thes in a position where they block emerging brood if I'm not careful to get them back the way they were. I prefer to shave the frames down and put 11 in a ten frame box. 1/16" off each side of the end bars will make 1 1/4" spacing (32mm) which will fit 11 in a 10 frame box or 9 in an eight frame box. (which is what I've now gone to).

I get an extra frame of brood. Smaller cells drawn. Less messed up comb. Less protruding bits of capped honey.

I prefer to space them 1 1/2" or more in the supers AFTER they are drawn. Before they are drawn that much room just lets them mess things up.

11 frames in a 10 frame box is an interesting concept, but wouldn't it be difficult to remove these frames during inspection and what about the bee space of 3/8ths. ?

Michael Bush · May 02, 2006, 09:53:06 PM

>11 frames in a 10 frame box is an interesting concept, but wouldn't it be difficult to remove these frames during inspection

Actually it's easier. Since there is no protruding honey.

> and what about the bee space of 3/8ths. ?

Well, when they have the freedom to build what they want it's the spacing they use. And they leave a beespace. Also they tend to draw the cells smaller.

A lot of people over the years have done this and advocated it. I should keep the links, but I haven't bothered. But I have measured comb spacing on natural comb a lot and 32mm (1 1/4") for worker brood comb is what I find. Drone brood comb tends to be a little wider and honey even wider.

latebee · May 02, 2006, 10:46:35 PM

Rev. Langstroth probably forgot more about bees in his lifetime than I will ever learn---and if he went with ten,well by golly that is good enough for me--he designed the whole concept of moveable frames and hive bodies from scratch himself,before that they had to destroy the colonies every year to extract the honey from the comb. Sometimes the old proven ways are the best,not always mind you because way back when they didn't have some of the parasite or disease problems we have unwittingly brought on ourselves and our bees.

Finsky · May 03, 2006, 12:17:44 AM

Quote from: RomahawkThere is all kinds of burr comb built up between the frames and up into the space between the frames from the bottom box into the top box.

If the thickness of combs are uneven I use to put protruding parts together and bees will open the gap and straighten combs. You may also cut the worst parts and let bees lick the honey.

QuoteMy question for anyone is can I take that top brood box and move it up by putting a putting a super of foundation between the top and bottom box with out causing more problems.

If hive is big (4 box) and you have honey flow you may do that. But if you have spring or early summer and hive is 2 box, operation will disturb brood area and you loose a lot of brood when bees try to keep warm whole hive.

Michael Bush · May 03, 2006, 12:51:54 PM

1 3/8" (35mm or 10 frames) is a compromise between the spacing of worker comb (30-32mm or 1 3/16"-1 1/4") drone comb (33-35mm or 1 5/16"-1 3/8") and honey storage comb that usually runs between 1 1/2" and sometimes as big as 2 1/2".

Langstroth spaced his by eye.

Romahawk · May 03, 2006, 12:59:13 PM

Thanks Finsky, I was wondering if the bees would be able to open the passageway between the frames after I pushed them together. 9 Frames are probably good for a super but it seems to me that it has made an ugly mess of my brood box. :)

I think I will move that box up later, the temperature here yesterday was a high of 64-F and a low of 46-F.......