Frames without bottom bars

[omnimirage]

I've been managing someone else's beehives. From what I've gathered, the old man that taught him liked to experiment, he had many ideas, distrusted contemporary beekeeping standards and apparently was going senile. One thing that he swore by, for whatever reason, was to use frames that don't have bottom bars.

The hives in this apiary have been difficult to work with. One problem I've been having, is the frames often seem to split apart somewhere it shouldn't when I lift them. It seems that, without the bottom bars, the bees attach the comb from the frame all the way down to the top bar of the frame underneath. This means that it breaks apart somewhere on the bottom when I lift them. Since I'm using smoke, the bees then all jump on the broken comb with running comb and eat it up, resulting in a lose of bee lives when I go to remove this sticky comb on the top bar and creates a general awkward, sticky mess that's time consuming to remove (the faster I am the more bees that die). Many of the frames in the honey supers up top don't have much foundation in them, just a plastic strip maybe a little less than an inch wide across the top, so when I go to pull these, since they're stuck to the frame underneath, often enough the honeycomb splits in half, creating quite a mess. It's been quite challenging accessing certain parts of some of the hives.

It seems that, with the bottom bar, the bees don't attach the comb underneath, that the bottom bar acts as a barrier for the bees to stop building comb. Does this seem correct to you guys? Is this any reason that you can think of that might be a good reason to not use bottom bars? Can frames without bottom bars, be processed in an electric honey spinner, or are they prone to breaking?

I need to decide what to do about this site. I'm considering just replacing his bottomless frames with my fully built frames, but from what I've gathered, if I do so, he might come and take his hives away and with it, my frame investment. If I don't though, I'll have to continue working with them for probably a few more years.

[beepro]

I'll have a talk with him to see how he's able to manage his hives without the bottom bar.  Maybe in
doing so you might learn something new in the process.   Another aspect of beekeeping is being flexible enough to
adapt the hive equipment to our liking. 

Ask him if you can graft some of his queens to make up for the lost equipment should he decide to take your equipment back.  Or you can
show him how your equipment can eliminate the messy comb situation.  Maybe then he will join you.   Having a bottom bar will make the
comb more stable in case it is full of honey or pollen.   Definitely make the honey extraction process much more easier because of the stable frames.

[little john]

I've just ferreted around inside my comb store bin, as I seemed to remember that there was a frame in there made without a bottom bar.  One of my early experiments ...  LOL



As you can see, the comb was drawn down to where the bottom bar would have ended - i.e. a bee-space above the frame top-bar below it.  No sign of adhesions ever having been made to the frame below, that I can see.  And, full-length attachment to the left-hand side bar (so much for the theory that bees need the comb to float free near the bottom in order to communicate with 'vibrations').

Positives (about having no bottom bar): can't see any, except it's just a little easier for the bees to climb across the inter-frame gap without having a bottom bar in place - the presence of which effectively creates 2x separate bee-space gaps when running foundationless.

Negatives: the main disadvantage I can see lies in the difficulty in providing a comb support structure.  Horizontal wires or even fishing line with minimum tension would pull the unsupported side bars inwards.  The use of vertical skewers (not seen as an option when I made that one) might be 'possible', although only anchored at one end of course.  Horizontal skewers would work ok ...

This one (although 12" deep, rather than the 9" above) might make a useful comparison:



So - substantial gap at the bottom, and an obvious reluctance to make side-adhesions wherever fishing-line is present. 
[The main reason for taking a photograph of this early attempt at DIY frames was to show that an 8mm side-bar thickness is insufficient, even when using low-tension fishing-line.  I went on to use 10mm side-bars with 2-part top-bars, and then to using vertical skewers.]

So - to 'summarise' - I think there is a case for using frames without bottom-bars, but - just as with Top Bar beekeeping - the perceived advantages appear to always be outweighed by disadvantages.
LJ

[Acebird]

Beepro once they have drawn it down to the next top bar trim the bottom of the comb so you can add the bottom bar and they will attach it.

Omni, I suspect the top bars had built up burr comb so the bees attached it.  If you know this is the case with your hive I would suggest the piano wire separation of the box.  Use two putty knives as shims.  Working the wire a little at a time.

[eltalia]

Bee space is wrong, check the height from frame rest to
top of frames in super/BC under.
With a QX in place bees will tend to draw down to it, plastic
QX are more prone to this than wire.
Where occuring in significant quantity the use of piano wire
between the boxes solves the problem of lifting frames out.

The mentor is teaching foundationless technique for a hobbyist.
Extraction then is "crush and strain", or comb honey cutouts
if the b'keep can keep up to the work in removing new comb.

I do not agree myself with using end bars as LJ illustrates
but his work does show you the system works, and works well.
Even with endbars the bees in times of heavy flow will build crazy
comb, 'cos they are in a rush, I guess.
So the down side for many a b'keep is the work required to set
new comb pulls from topbars.
In a BC, no worries... once set once the frames can be relied on
to stay in form. For supers however the build can be good (straight)
one week only to find on next inspection there is capped crosscomb
in a number of places, usually central to the hive body.
Such is the business of strong flows.

I would not hold with using plasticore (tm) strips as starters buuuut
many swear by it for longevity. My own method is to not cut the whole
of comb out - as again , many do - but to leave an inch (25mm) or so
for the bees.
Even here in the tropics I rarely break comb in handling.

Bill

[omnimirage]

I'm not particularly able to talk to the owner his set up. In the three years I've managed them it seems he's checked them just three times. They were essentially abandoned when I took them in and were really quite a mess to deal with.

That's pretty much what his frames look like Little John. Some of them have plastic foundation some don't.

It could simply be that I haven't been checking up on these bees frequently enough to prevent them from building burr comb, which is why there are always attached. I'm not sure though I'm just guessing.

@ eltalia:

They did once or twice build comb not straight up but attached to it each other going long ways. It was a mess to deal with. I don't really know much about the plastic strips but it seems to work really quite well, though one thing I've learned through trial and error is to not just place a full empty super with empty frames that has nothing but the plastic strip. I make sure there's always a plastic foundation frame on each side of a frame that just has a plastic strip, they seem to need it to guide them in building straight vertical comb on the plastic strip frames. I use these plastic strip frames as a means of packaging honey comb to supply to people, I just cut it out directly and place it in a container.