Side Frame Thickness

Ben Framed · April 23, 2018, 12:20:48 PM

A Curiosity question. I would like to ask a question reguarding frames If the official side bar width is 1/8 inch less that the thickness of a 2X4, which Inhave been told, would it still work if you were to use the 2X4 as is and keep the extra 1/8 inch thickness of the new side bar? I realize you would loose a frame on an eight frame box which will make it a seven frame box , but would the bees still work it without adding bur comb in between? Will the bees make the comb a little "thicker"? Any thoughts ? Thanks, Phillip Hall

little john · April 23, 2018, 01:09:02 PM

It would probably work ok if making frames for supers, but not for brood frames. The important measurement is not the width of the side bars themselves, but of the resulting frame spacing. If the frame spacing is too wide, then yes - the bees will try (and succeed) in inserting extra comb into that spacing.
LJ

Bush_84 · April 23, 2018, 01:50:31 PM

Ya I?m with little John. If you have a table saw it?s an easy fix. I?ve built plenty of frames with 2x4s. It?s putzy work and I do prefer buying them. There are times that I?ve just had to bust out a few.

Acebird · April 23, 2018, 01:57:14 PM

Even in the super you would not wan't to put frames at a wider spacing unless the frames was previously drawn and straight. It is a two step process.

Beeboy01 · April 23, 2018, 02:27:10 PM

1/8 of an inch per frame side means that the foundations will be 1/4 inch farther apart in the hive. 1/4 of an inch will violate the 3/8 inch bee space rule and they will fill the gap with burr comb or double comb.

Michael Bush · April 23, 2018, 02:35:32 PM

Mostly you end up with uneven comb as they will fill the honey at the top of a brood frame out to 1 3/8" thick and the brood will be only 1" thick. The right thickness is 1 1/4".

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesframewidth.htm

eltalia · April 23, 2018, 07:08:44 PM

Quote from: Michael Bush on April 23, 2018, 02:35:32 PM
Mostly you end up with uneven comb as they will fill the honey at the top of a brood frame out to 1 3/8" thick and the brood will be only 1" thick. The right thickness is 1 1/4".

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesframewidth.htm

"fat combs"... luuuurve 'em!
[smiles]

Bill

Ben Framed · April 23, 2018, 07:15:43 PM

Thanks everyone, The reason that I ask is I have the right tools to make them in a streamline production . I have been using 2X4s and sometimes 2x6s. First I Cut the proper length. Run them through the plainer. And shave off the 1/8 inch which puts them at the "official" thickness, before running the complete (block) through the router on each end for the top bar and bottom bar gap. which means, if I were to eliminate the plainer step as previously mentioned, the new frames would be 1/16 thicker on each side of the frame when assembled. In theory, knowing that when reinserting, the (official) size frames, We leave a slight gap in between each frame, not totally buted together.(a slight space). I am thinking that I have seen some of the bee supply companies selling a frame spacer that regulates this space evenly throughout the hive, which in theory will probably leave at least 1/16 in between, if not more. I was trying to illuminate the plainer step and was not sure if this would be a huge mistake being the time involved in making frames. Frames are very time consuming and I certainly don't want waste time making something that is destin to fail....It is sometimes fun to think outside the box. But now when their is a failure. In some cases a failure is a waste of time 😊😁 Again thanks for your replys. Sincerely, Phillip Hall

Acebird · April 23, 2018, 07:57:24 PM

What is the material? A lot of 2x4 are spruce which would be garbage for a hive. Only other option would be fir or hemlock. I recommend pine which you will not find in structural lumber unless it is pressure treated. How about Trex? Anybody building frames out of extruded plastic?

cao · April 23, 2018, 08:31:10 PM

I've made several hundred frames and they aren't the most fun thing to make. I would definitely not make them wider than the standard. After they are in the hives a while the propolis between the frames will widen the spacing some even with the standard width frames.

moebees · April 23, 2018, 11:02:07 PM

Quote from: Acebird on April 23, 2018, 07:57:24 PM
What is the material? A lot of 2x4 are spruce which would be garbage for a hive.

Why? I have built allot of hives out of spruce.

little john · April 24, 2018, 04:31:02 AM

As some of you already know, I make all my own woodwork including frames (except those for sale) from pallet wood - which I've found to vary enormously: much of it is pine of various types, but there's quite often a lot of white wood also to be found.

I wouldn't dream of making pukka Hoffman/foundation-style frames - as there's no way a DIY-er could ever compete with the mass-production methods used to make those - but simple foundationless frames are very easy and cheap enough (almost free) to make.

I've made these with side-bars ranging from 20 to 25mm, and I've never once seen propolis in-between gaps at the sides. The top gap sometimes sees a little creative waxwork, but never the sides or bottom. To achieve spacing, I've gradually moved over to using small (3mm x 25mm) woodscrews fixed into the frame top bar, just outside of the comb field, so that the frames can still be pulled directly upwards (with the others still in place) without causing damage to the combs.

I've found that there are three advantages in using screws for spacing instead of conventional Hoffman side-bars. Firstly, the frame spacing itself can easily be adjusted. UK Hoffman frames are purchased with a compromise 35mm spacing, whereas I've found that 34mm suits my bees better, and I might even further reduce that a little over time. The second advantage is that woodscrew heads have a much smaller contact area than that presented by Hoffman side-bars, and I can't remember ever squashing a bee when closing-up frames after an inspection.
Thirdly, there is markedly less propolis to deal with. In the past, one of the banes of my life has been scraping-off propolis from Hoffman side-bars in the full knowledge that it'll be replaced just as soon as the frame is returned to the hive. And if you don't scrape it off, then the frame spacing gradually widens, with all the problems that this creates: in short, it's a barmy system - but one that we've all grown up with, and so tend not to object to using.

LJ

BeeMaster2 · April 24, 2018, 07:33:32 AM

Quote from: Acebird on April 23, 2018, 07:57:24 PM
What is the material? A lot of 2x4 are spruce which would be garbage for a hive. Only other option would be fir or hemlock. I recommend pine which you will not find in structural lumber unless it is pressure treated. How about Trex? Anybody building frames out of extruded plastic?

Brian,
Maybe I am missing something but most structural lumber here is white pine. White pine is what almost every frame that I have ever bought is made from.
When I had this house built, I put it in the contract that all support walls were to be made from yellow pine because white pine, spruce and fir is pure termite food down here. The builder did it but he really hated not being able to use white pine.
Jim

Acebird · April 24, 2018, 08:35:22 AM

Quote from: moebees on April 23, 2018, 11:02:07 PM
Why? I have built allot of hives out of spruce.

It rots the fastest.

Acebird · April 24, 2018, 08:48:01 AM

Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 24, 2018, 07:33:32 AM
Brian,
Maybe I am missing something but most structural lumber here is white pine.

It might be more plentiful in FL. It is structurally much weaker then spruce and fir. What is the size of the 2x4 that is made from pine? There are a lot of old houses up here that were made from pine 2x4's but they are a full 2x4 rough sawn. Back in the day you used what was close by. Today most lumber comes from other countries. The wife only wants block construction because of the termites and hurricanes in FL.

BeeMaster2 · April 24, 2018, 08:18:46 PM

Quote from: Acebird on April 24, 2018, 08:48:01 AM
Quote from: sawdstmakr on April 24, 2018, 07:33:32 AM
Brian,
Maybe I am missing something but most structural lumber here is white pine.

It might be more plentiful in FL. It is structurally much weaker then spruce and fir. What is the size of the 2x4 that is made from pine? There are a lot of old houses up here that were made from pine 2x4's but they are a full 2x4 rough sawn. Back in the day you used what was close by. Today most lumber comes from other countries. The wife only wants block construction because of the termites and hurricanes in FL.

White pine does not grow here in the south. It has to be shipped in. We grow tons of yellow pine. That is what is on my farm. Almost all houses here are built with white pine.
The yellow pine is the same dimensions as white pine or spruce.
Spruce and fir are great if you want to feed the termites. They like it as much as they love white pine.

Jim

moebees · April 25, 2018, 01:07:19 AM

Quote from: Acebird on April 24, 2018, 08:35:22 AM
Quote from: moebees on April 23, 2018, 11:02:07 PM
Why? I have built allot of hives out of spruce.

It rots the fastest.

I doesn't rot any faster than pine.

Acebird · April 25, 2018, 10:04:29 AM

Spruce is not durable. Worst choice for exposed lumber.
http://www.softwood.org/uploads/7/1/0/6/71061057/as_species_eng.pdf

Ben Framed · April 25, 2018, 08:38:41 PM

Quote from: Acebird on April 25, 2018, 10:04:29 AM
Spruce is not durable. Worst choice for exposed lumber.
http://www.softwood.org/uploads/7/1/0/6/71061057/as_species_eng.pdf

I agree with you Ace about hives and spruce, but frames, in a good hive are pretty much protected from the (elements) inside the hive. Therefore I was thinking it would be ok for frames? I realize that condensation can be, and is a part of the inside of not properly vented hive. One thing that I have noticed on this forum is the importance of a properly vented hive. Especially in winter. Also, with bees tracking up, down, and all along the frames, the frames seem to have a slight coating of , bees wax or propolis?, which should add to their protection? Now remember , I am new so if I'm wrong, please correct me. Kind reguards, Phillip Hall

Acebird · April 25, 2018, 08:52:20 PM

Any insect needs a very high moisture content to live. A beehive is very moist. Bees propolise the inside of the hive. If they did not the equipment would not last more than a couple of years. The amount of moisture on the outside is nothing compared to the inside. What kills the equipment on the outside is the sun. The purpose of painting a hive is to protect it from the sun.