A question about migratory tops and inner covers

[CoolBees]

Looking at pictures, it doesn't seem like there are Inner Covers in use with Migratory Tops. Is that correct?

If so, how is the bees pace properly achieved between the frames and a migratory top?

Or maybe - what am I missing?

Thanks in advance.
Alan

[BeeMaster2]

Alan,
The reason for usitthe inner cover withthe telescoping cover is that if you do not use one, the bees will glue it shut and then you cannot get a hive tool in to open it. With a migratory top, you can get your hive tool under it to break it free. The bee space is provided by the frames being recessed by a 1/4 inch by the way the frame rests are cut.
Jim Altmiller

[drobbins]

I just built 4 telescoping covers and I still can't figure out a good way to bend the flashing
I even built a little homemade brake and it still didn't get a sharp corner
I think I might switch to migratory tops because they're easier to build

[iddee]

Use your skil saw or table saw to cut a grove in a "2 by" 3/4 inch deep. Angle it just slightly. Put the flashing in the slot and bend down to the 2 by. Tap with a hammer to get a nice corner.

[drobbins]

I actually made a little cheezy brake but I still didn't like the results, it's serviceable, just not what I want
folks on youtube say to score it lightly at the bend, I may give that a try
the problem is I've used a real brake before so I know what it "should" look like

[paus]

I have been using the commercial roofing used in flat roofed buildings.  It is very resistant to sunlight and is also durable.  I have been painting the black material with outdoor white paint and it can be easily recoated without disturbing the residents.  The last time I was talking to a friend that owns a large roofing Co. he told me about a new WHITE material that has all of the qualities that the black roofing has.  For two Quarts of honey he gave me some left over material he probably won't ever use and I can do at least twenty covers with it.  It is easily worked, and uses a contact cement that is strong so it stays in place until I reinforce the corners with lath screws.  I think there will be lots more of this used on covers.

[jimineycricket]

   Check this site for bending telescoping top flashing.
    http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/index.html

[TheHoneyPump]

Alan,
The reason for the inner cover with the telescoping cover is that if you do not use one, the bees will glue it shut and then you cannot get a hive tool in to open it. With a migratory top, you can get your hive tool under it to break it free. The bee space is provided by the frames being recessed by a 1/4 inch by the way the frame rests are cut.
Jim Altmiller

Cool - this is the answer. 

Also, some migratory covers have a 1/8" thick x 3/4" wide shim glued and stapled around the perimeter on the bottom of the cover.  This adds just a bit more bee space above the frames. The bees do not really need it because the frames are already recessed, but they do appreciate the slight bit more wing room over the top bars. Do not go any thicker or they will get the lid glue out!  The shim adds a fair bit more work to making the covers.  For a few covers, I put it on.  When making a big batch, do not bother.

The other reason, primary reason, why migratory lids do not have inner covers is simply equipment count.  When managing 100s - 1000s of hives, any reduction in equipment count adds to appreciable savings.  Save in asset costs of not having unnecessary parts, save in labour costs of not handling extra parts, save in do-overs from not having lids blowing off or sliding off during handling and moving.

Not sure how a question about migratory covers turned into how-tos for making a telescoping cover, but whatever.

.

[Acebird]

I just built 4 telescoping covers and I still can't figure out a good way to bend the flashing
I even built a little homemade brake and it still didn't get a sharp corner
I think I might switch to migratory tops because they're easier to build

My tops were all water proof plywood and a layer of roofing material (fire and ice it is called).

[CoolBees]

Alan,
The reason for the inner cover with the telescoping cover is that if you do not use one, the bees will glue it shut and then you cannot get a hive tool in to open it. With a migratory top, you can get your hive tool under it to break it free. The bee space is provided by the frames being recessed by a 1/4 inch by the way the frame rests are cut.
Jim Altmiller

Cool - this is the answer. 

Also, some migratory covers have a 1/8" thick x 3/4" wide shim glued and stapled around the perimeter on the bottom of the cover.  This adds just a bit more bee space above the frames. The bees do not really need it because the frames are already recessed, but they do appreciate the slight bit more wing room over the top bars. Do not go any thicker or they will get the lid glue out!  The shim adds a fair bit more work to making the covers.  For a few covers, I put it on.  When making a big batch, do not bother.

The other reason, primary reason, why migratory lids do not have inner covers is simply equipment count.  When managing 100s - 1000s of hives, any reduction in equipment count adds to appreciable savings.  Save in asset costs of not having unnecessary parts, save in labour costs of not handling extra parts, save in do-overs from not having lids blowing off or sliding off during handling and moving.

Not sure how a question about migratory covers turned into how-tos for making a telescoping cover, but whatever.

.

Haha - Jim and HP - both of you always have great answers! That what I was wondering about. I hadn't measured from the frames to the top - it just looked a little short for proper beespace.

HP - that's where I'm at - as I start growing the hive count, the money and headaches start to add up. I think your shim idea makes the most sense, but like you say, costs and man hours matter when hive counts rise. Where I'm at, I think migratory tops can reasonably used year round.

I'll do some measurements and make a decision on how to proceed.

Thanks for responding.

[Acebird]

I think migratory tops can reasonably used year round.

For the backyard beek the tele cover can be used to close off the vent that was made in the inner cover.  To reopen just push the cover forward.  Seeing that I am lazy I never saw the need to invest in ratchet straps because I used a tele cover.

[Ben Framed]

Good topic and replys
Iddee I like your idea on the (grooved bender), good common sense.'

Mr Honeypunp, why not simply make the groove in the boxes 1/8 deeper? Or would this cause the bees to (get the glue out) in the boxes below the top box and all boxes in between the top and bottom box. Wouldn't the 1/8 deeper cut in th lip give the same results; without the added work of the shims added to the covers? That is if y'all build your own hive boxes of course.
Thank you,
Phillip

[drobbins]

Phillip,

The main reason not to do that is it makes it non standard
There's a huge advantage to having everything interchangeable
even folks who build there own stuff likely have some "standard" stuff too

[cao]

Even the "standard" stuff isn't necessarily the same.  I've noticed a difference in the space above the frames depending on who manufactured it.  Kelley frames sit a little lower than Mann lake and others.

[Skeggley]

As I've said in another thread, here in Aus migratory lids are the standard. They are flush on all sides which seems to be different to yours up there as they overhang front and back?
No inner covers used at all except when feeding with a pail. I think Dusty summed up the logical reason in the second post for inner cover use with a telescopic lid.
Our lids do have a 40mm space in them which I put 20mm insulation in but most don't bother. Hive mats are common here also which sorts the bee space and when the bees begin to build comb inside the cover it's time to add more room.
Our lids usually have 4 off 25mm meshed holes for ventilation which I find get propolized more often or not. Something to check when relocating hives. My area has warm summers yet the bees control temps fine without top ventilation just using the base entrance, just as they would in a tree hollow in the wild. They still beard on the hotter +35?C days though...


I see the logic in a telescoping cover for water ingress but I do read about them being blown off which has never been an issue with my hives and we can get strong gusty winds.

[BeeMaster2]

Even the "standard" stuff isn't necessarily the same.  I've noticed a difference in the space above the frames depending on who manufactured it.  Kelley frames sit a little lower than Mann lake and others.

Even the thickness of the frame hangers is defferent  from one manufacturer to another.
Probably why the supers are made different.
Jim Altmiller

[Ben Framed]

Phillip,

The main reason not to do that is it makes it non standard
There's a huge advantage to having everything interchangeable
even folks who build there own stuff likely have some "standard" stuff too

Cutting the grove 1/8 deeper should not change the interchangeability of equipment.  1/8 should not contribute to bur comb or propolis with the incorporation of a cut down grooved box even when placed on a non cut down groove-box. (standard box)? There is a fellow on YouTube which is quite well known for his talents as a beekeeper. He even mills his own lumber from the log. he boost that he always cuts his grooves 3/4 deep without any problems. His name is Don, He is called the fatbeeman. He sells his Nucs all across the United States and supposedly all his stuff is interchangeable?  The frames would sit in the box 1/8 deeper than before, thus be 1/8 deeper at the bottom. Eliminating the need for a shim on the migratory top? But even so, as HoneyPump said, even the 1/8 inch extra head space is not needed but ''appreciated'' by the bees.  Personally, my bees will have to put up with things the way they are. Haa Haa  I don't mind doing what is needed for them but I'm not planning of building them a Hilton Hotel 

Let me add, I agree with you about folks who build their own stuff. In my opinion, each who do so would be better off if they stick to the standard measurements, in the short run, as well as the long run.
Thanks, Phillip

[Michael Bush]

Top space on standard Langstroth boxes is 1/4" which is minimum beespace.  Bottom space is 1/8".  So a migratory cover should leave 1/4". 

[Hops Brewster]

Looking at pictures, it doesn't seem like there are Inner Covers in use with Migratory Tops. Is that correct?

If so, how is the bees pace properly achieved between the frames and a migratory top?

Or maybe - what am I missing?

Thanks in advance.
Alan

To maintain bee space I buld in a 3/8" spacer around the edge of the migratory top.  I also leave a 1" wide gap in the center of the front end that can be a closeble entrance/vent.  Slide top forward, vent open.  Slide back, it's closed.

[CoolBees]

Hops - thanks for replying. That makes a lot of sense. I've got some remnants of assembled boxes that I cut down from deep to mediums. I was thinking of cutting those into shims. I think the bees need a little more space at the top than the Mann Lake equipment provides.