laying worker or Immature queen

billdean · May 14, 2019, 10:09:19 PM

One of my over winter hives lost it's queen or I accidentally smooched her. Time frame: 4/27 I found 4 capped queen cells. Split the hive and left the cells in the original position added a queen to the split. 5/1 went back into the queen less hive and found the cells were gone. What the heck? I installed a caged queen on 5/3 in a push in cage. 5/7 released the queen as things seemed OK.
Today I went in to check for eggs. The pictures below shows what I found. Laying worker? or confused newly laying queen? I also found on the front ramp of the hive the dead queen. The queen was still nice and soft like she had just been killed. I added a frame of eggs from another hive and closed it up. If this is a laying worker hive, I would like to cut my losses now and shake it out, instead of wasting more brood on this hive. If I go back in a few days and they have started queen cells, is the hive saved? Or in a few days when I go back in, if there is not queen cells started that would defiantly mean they think they have a queen even if it is a laying worker? Am I correct on this?
Top photo is worker comb
bottom photo is drone comb

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iddee · May 14, 2019, 10:31:22 PM

New queen. Be happy.

billdean · May 14, 2019, 11:06:58 PM

Quote from: iddee on May 14, 2019, 10:31:22 PM
New queen. Be happy.

So iddee are you saying there is a new queen even though I found the one I installed dead today? It was a marked queen with a green dot which is what I put in there and released on 5/7. Dead. That must mean that the hive all ready had a queen or there is a laying worker. The frame of eggs I put in there today should tell the story here shortly? Should it not? I hope your right!

billdean · May 14, 2019, 11:11:18 PM

The drone comb had 3 and 4 eggs in them if you can see them in the picture, but the worker comb had just one egg per cell.

TheHoneyPump · May 15, 2019, 01:16:13 AM

My questions
My thoughts

Just how big is this hive? How many boxes, how many frames of bees? How hard can it be to find a queen to confirm if there is one or not?

There can be any of a number of scenarios that arrived at this point. Which one is unclear, because of the introduction of a new queen in the process.
As best I can deduce from your description and the pictures, here is what I think.
- you have laying workers. Evidenced by the shear number of multiple eggs in the drone comb. A new queen figuring out her equipment may lay two eggs in a cell here and there. Definitely not many eggs per cell and certainly not all in the same area. (drone comb or not)
- the laying workers killed the new virgin(s) from the queen cells noted.
- the new queen was initially accepted by the straight bees around her and got to lay some eggs. As she moved on, she encountered laying worker(s) roaming on the same comb. Then the queen was killed.
- the laying workers are still there going at it.
- Do not waste any time and resources nor another queen on this hive. Even if they make queen cells from the comb given, they will kill those queens too.

Here is the suggested fix.
- First, go through the hive thoroughly looking for queens. Virgins or laying, doesn't matter. If you find one or more, cage them and put them in your pocket.
- Next goto your strongest hive, open it up and put a newspaper on top. Pickup this laying worker hive and put it on top. The strong hive will sort out this mess for you. Leave them alone for 10 days. Alternative is if this laying worker hive is a small colony, just shake it out in the middle of the bee yard and take all the equipment away. Do not put the hive back where it was. Force them to beg into the other hives, which will sort them all out. Use the bees to fix the bees ;)
- Next go to your second and third strongest hives to take some resources to make up nuc(s) for each of the caged queens in your pocket. Set out those nucs. Leave the nucs alone for 25 days.
- Come back later to see what you have in the nucs then rebuild the hive(s).

Done.

Hope that helps!

iddee · May 15, 2019, 05:59:44 AM

Laying workers don't get all eggs to the bottom of the cell. Many are deposited on the sides. Your pics have all of them in the bottom.
A new queen will lay as high as 4 eggs in a cell, but laying workers will lay 6, 8, even more per cell. Laying workers will never have as many single eggs standing up in the bottom of cells as your pics have.

Do as you said and watch for queen cells on the frame of eggs you supplied.You will not find any, but will find capped worker brood in a week

Oldbeavo · May 15, 2019, 07:30:39 AM

Were the 4/27 Q-cells where the queen come from, she was there as a virgin If she was there, then the time lapse to now would account for mating time and laying.
The bees have tolerated your introduced Q until their young Q has started laying, they are happy with her so bump off the introduced Q. Bit like is a supersedure when they keep the old Q until the new one is approved.
I have had multi laying young Q's become good Q eventually.
Wait to see if brood caps, then decide on the next step.

Ben Framed · May 15, 2019, 10:52:03 AM

Quote from: iddee on May 15, 2019, 05:59:44 AM
Laying workers don't get all eggs to the bottom of the cell. Many are deposited on the sides. Your pics have all of them in the bottom.
A new queen will lay as high as 4 eggs in a cell, but laying workers will lay 6, 8, even more per cell. Laying workers will never have as many single eggs standing up in the bottom of cells as your pics have.

Do as you said and watch for queen cells on the frame of eggs you supplied.You will not find any, but will find capped worker brood in a week

Good information here iddee, sounds logical to me. Thanks for posting.

Ben Framed · May 15, 2019, 11:53:38 AM

@ HP
Good information on how to deal with a laying worker hive, thanks for posting
Phillip

Nock · May 15, 2019, 12:01:49 PM

Some good info in this thread.

Ben Framed · May 15, 2019, 12:04:55 PM

Quote from: Oldbeavo on May 15, 2019, 07:30:39 AM
Were the 4/27 Q-cells where the queen come from, she was there as a virgin If she was there, then the time lapse to now would account for mating time and laying.
The bees have tolerated your introduced Q until their young Q has started laying, they are happy with her so bump off the introduced Q. Bit like is a supersedure when they keep the old Q until the new one is approved.
I have had multi laying young Q's become good Q eventually.
Wait to see if brood caps, then decide on the next step.

Very logical.

TheHoneyPump · May 15, 2019, 01:17:28 PM

A laying worker will easily back in down to the bottom of a larger drone cell. I have never seen a new queen lay more that two in a cell, and those cells are far apart.
Perhaps review the scenario I described that explains the presence of both.
I stand by my assessment based on the information available. You can keep with the try this try that wait and see approach, losing valuable time and resources. Ending with a completely failed set of attempts and lost bees biomass. Or you can get into it and deal with the problem directly now to set them straight starting today and make use of the bees.
Let us know what you end up doing and how it all played out in 3 weeks.
Good luck with the hive.

BeeMaster2 · May 15, 2019, 01:46:23 PM

THP,
In my observation hive I have seen a newly mated queen lay three of four eggs in a cell the first couple of days and then settle down to laying only one egg per day. She was laying the eggs in the bottom of the cells. I was a bit concerned at first because I was also told by experienced beeks that queens do not lay more than 2 in a cell. After that I also found triple eggs in my field hives.
I check the location of the eggs to tell if it is laying workers or a queen.
Jim Altmiller

billdean · May 15, 2019, 02:11:14 PM

Quote from: TheHoneyPump on May 15, 2019, 01:17:28 PM
A laying worker will easily back in down to the bottom of a larger drone cell. I have never seen a new queen lay more that two in a cell, and those cells are far apart.
Perhaps review the scenario I described that explains the presence of both.
I stand by my assessment based on the information available. You can keep with the try this try that wait and see approach, losing valuable time and resources. Ending with a completely failed set of attempts and lost bees biomass. Or you can get into it and deal with the problem directly now to set them straight starting today and make use of the bees.
Let us know what you end up doing and how it all played out in 3 weeks.
Good luck with the hive.

The smaller worker cells only have one egg in the bottom of the cells. A few have 2 in the bottom. Can a laying worker do that every time?

A few more days is what I am going to give this hive. This is based on my observation of it and in put from here. Prior to yesterday of them killing the caged queen the hive was angry all the time. You could not go into the yard without them attaching you. If you opened it up 10 or 20 guard bees would attack relentlessly. I could tell by the way they acted something was wrong. Always sitting on the front porch in a group as if they had nothing to do, while every other hive was booming.
Today, the day after they killed the caged queen they are acting like a normal hive. Coming and going, bring in pollen. There is quite a difference in their attitude and the way the hive is working.
My gut feeling is there was a virgin queen in the hive when I introduced the caged queen. The weather has been bad, cold, raining for a couple of weeks. Not mating weather for sure. But in saying that a little more time should tell. When I do not know what to do it has been my experience to do nothing. I wish I could follow that most of the time. This time I will! I will be back with what I have found in a few more days. Thanks for everyones input!

TheHoneyPump · May 15, 2019, 02:22:41 PM

*************
The smaller worker cells only have one egg in the bottom of the cells. A few have 2 in the bottom. Can a laying worker do that every time?
*************

No LW cannot. However that introduced mated queen likely laid those ones, shortly before she was killed ...

iddee · May 15, 2019, 04:22:35 PM

A week will tell the tale.

Ben Framed · May 18, 2019, 12:01:40 AM

I have a question, will the nurse bees remove all the eggs in the drone combs or will they leave one egg for business?
Thanks, Phillip

Oldbeavo · May 19, 2019, 07:49:53 AM

A young queen will multi lay then settle down, just wait and see how the cells are capped, drone or normal.
A lot of the time we go $^* is going on, don't know, shut up the hive and check next week. there are not many instant disasters in bee keeping and most of the time the bees are right even though we think we are managing the hive.

van from Arkansas · May 20, 2019, 11:30:02 AM

Some of those cells on the bottom pic have 5 eggs in a single cell. That is an indication of a laying worker as explained by HP. I agree with HP: introduced queen laid in top, then killed by laying workers.
All good things.

billdean · May 20, 2019, 12:23:10 PM

The pictures on my first post is of the same comb. The distance from the drone comb and worker comb in that pic is less than 1 inch. You can see the transition in the second pic. Apparently some think the laying work and the introduced queen were laying side by side, Maybe. I am not sure what is going on yet but I will be opening the hive up possibly tomorrow and checking again. It's 46* right now so I am going to wait until its warmer, hopefully that's tomorrow.