Feeding Honey to Winter Cluster

The15thMember · February 24, 2020, 12:26:16 PM

Tomorrow is going to be pretty warm here, up into the 60's. I have one hive that feels really light, and I've been feeding them sugar bricks for a few months now, which they have been slowly eating. I have some honey frames from a recent deadout that I'd like to give them. (I've already frozen the honey frames.) I was warned recently against pulling frames before spring in case of harming the queen. What's the best way for me to give them this honey safely?

CoolBees · February 24, 2020, 02:34:30 PM

Maybe put the honey frames in another box, and place this box on top of the hives other boxes, so they have access to fresh stores in frames directly above. This would eliminate the need to mess with the brood nest. Just a thought.

jalentour · February 24, 2020, 05:00:36 PM

Cool,
He is in west N. Carolina, rather mountainous with elevation (cold). Not sure that's a good idea.
I have never added comb honey to a hive in winter so I like someone who has to chime in. My guess is to put it close to the brood nest as you can without disturbing the cluster. Having said that, i have been taught that the cluster moves up in the winter.

paus · February 24, 2020, 06:24:18 PM

Putting a frame of honey right over the cluster is as close as you can get to the center. I did this about two weeks ago by laying some comb on the frames and placing a screened top with no insulation upside down over the honey. worked ok .

Ben Framed · February 24, 2020, 07:21:06 PM

"(He) is in west N. Carolina"

She

The15thMember · February 24, 2020, 07:31:21 PM

Hm, perhaps it's just not such a good idea. I'd obviously rather they have the honey, but maybe it's too risky, and I should just keep feeding them sugar as long as they are taking it.

Quote from: jvalentour on February 24, 2020, 05:00:36 PM
My guess is to put it close to the brood nest as you can without disturbing the cluster.

Maybe I'll just do this, since there is little risk to it, and see if they move over.

Acebird · February 25, 2020, 08:47:30 AM

Quote from: The15thMember on February 24, 2020, 12:26:16 PM
Tomorrow is going to be pretty warm here, up into the 60's. I have one hive that feels really light,

How long before dandelion bloom? If more than a week or two I wouldn't waste the honey. Save it for splits from your good overwintered hives. Nursemaid-ing marginal hives is not productive and depressing when the effort is fruitless.

jalentour · February 25, 2020, 09:35:58 AM

I just put the second layer of mountain camp on most of my hives.
Sugar is a safe bet this time of year.

The15thMember · February 25, 2020, 11:56:25 AM

Well then, I guess I'll just keep on with the sugar. If it ain't broke, I suppose.

Thanks for the advice everyone.

The15thMember · February 25, 2020, 09:21:19 PM

Hey, I have a question that is sort of related to this topic. If the bees get separated from their stores, but then there is a warm spell, will they move the cluster to the remaining honey? Essentially, if it gets warm enough for the bees to break cluster and then it gets cold again, will they re-cluster on honey if there is some in the hive?

Acebird · February 26, 2020, 08:43:16 AM

Quote from: The15thMember on February 25, 2020, 09:21:19 PM
If the bees get separated from their stores, but then there is a warm spell, will they move the cluster to the remaining honey?

Almost never. They will not leave brood. The best you can hope for is they will move enough honey to the cluster to survive. That is why mountain camp is futile. Artificially heating the hive so you could feed it syrup might work but I have my doubts.

The15thMember · February 26, 2020, 01:45:26 PM

Quote from: Acebird on February 26, 2020, 08:43:16 AM
Almost never. They will not leave brood. The best you can hope for is they will move enough honey to the cluster to survive. That is why mountain camp is futile. Artificially heating the hive so you could feed it syrup might work but I have my doubts.

Do colonies always have brood over the winter? I had been under the impression that most colonies don't, but perhaps that is incorrect.

jalentour · February 26, 2020, 02:16:34 PM

Mountain Camp is very useful. When the cluster moves up eating it's natural stores, they may run out. That's when they hit the sugar. The cluster forms under the sugar.
With enough natural stores the cluster never makes it to the sugar, MC is just insurance. I have several hives that are clustering well below the MC, others that are on it. Closer to spring, some hives will be making comb in the shim area where the MC is placed.

It is correct the bees will not leave their winter brood. They may have more brood in warm winters than cold.
I have heard that winter warm spells may cause the queen to lay more and when the normal cold returns there are not enough nurse bees to cover the brood (cluster). This may cause a die off.
In my die-offs I have not seen eggs or brood leading me to conclude the cluster was too small for the queen to lay.

Acebird · February 27, 2020, 09:02:57 AM

Quote from: The15thMember on February 26, 2020, 01:45:26 PM

Do colonies always have brood over the winter?

Bees anticipate spring. They must brood up in order to catch the heavy spring flow. In a winter that lasts 5 months they start brooding right about now. This is also when the mite population starts to expand but the beekeeper can not do much about it until it warms up. So if a hive is struggling now There isn't much point in wasting resources to keep it alive IMO.
I think you should do the opposite. Take the resources from the dud hives to split strong surviving hives. In most cases you can expand your apiary even though you are lost some hives. Even though you may be a hobbyist and not dependent on income from bees you can learn a lot from commercial beekeepers. They do not lament over struggling hives. They plan for replacements.
If your hives are struggling from something you did or did not do the best thing you can do is not repeat the mistake.

Acebird · February 27, 2020, 09:10:12 AM

Quote from: jvalentour on February 26, 2020, 02:16:34 PM
When the cluster moves up eating it's natural stores, they may run out. That's when they hit the sugar.

The problem I have with this statement is they should never run out.

The15thMember · February 27, 2020, 12:50:00 PM

Thank you both, jv and Ace, for your replies. I never thought about how the queens would have to start laying early to be built up for the warm weather.

Quote from: Acebird on February 27, 2020, 09:02:57 AM
Take the resources from the dud hives to split strong surviving hives.

Quote from: Acebird on February 27, 2020, 09:10:12 AM
Quote from: jvalentour on February 26, 2020, 02:16:34 PM
When the cluster moves up eating it's natural stores, they may run out. That's when they hit the sugar.
The problem I have with this statement is they should never run out.

Just to be clear, this hive isn't a "dud hive". They went into winter strong and don't seem to be struggling based on what I can see. The hive just feels light. I gave all the hives roughly the same amount of honey going into the winter, so I'm not sure why this hive feels empty while the other 2 are still heavy. Obviously it would have been better for them not to run out of stores, but they did, so I don't really see anything wrong with feeding them so they can make to spring instead of starving.

CoolBees · February 27, 2020, 03:59:20 PM

Quote from: The15thMember on February 27, 2020, 12:50:00 PM
... I gave all the hives roughly the same amount of honey going into the winter, so I'm not sure why this hive feels empty while the other 2 are still heavy. ...

Just a guess (since I don't have the winter like you do), maybe this hive raised more brood than the other hives, recently or during the winter? ... if so, and if they survive, they might hit spring stronger. ... just a thought.

Ben Framed · February 27, 2020, 05:37:37 PM

Quote from: CoolBees on February 27, 2020, 03:59:20 PM
Quote from: The15thMember on February 27, 2020, 12:50:00 PM
... I gave all the hives roughly the same amount of honey going into the winter, so I'm not sure why this hive feels empty while the other 2 are still heavy. ...

Just a guess (since I don't have the winter like you do), maybe this hive raised more brood than the other hives, recently or during the winter? ... if so, and if they survive, they might hit spring stronger. ... just a thought.

Alan, my thoughts exactly. It will be interesting to hear more from member on this, especially when the time is right for inspection. Member, I hope your hive not only makes it through but thrives! Best to you.
Phillip Hall

Acebird · February 28, 2020, 09:12:20 AM

Quote from: The15thMember on February 27, 2020, 12:50:00 PM
I gave all the hives roughly the same amount of honey going into the winter,

How did you give the hives honey and why did you have to? Sometimes the strongest hives don't make it. Part of that can be mites. The strongest hives in fall could have the highest mite infestation. For those that treat this is why they do it in the fall.

The15thMember · February 28, 2020, 01:44:12 PM

Quote from: Acebird on February 28, 2020, 09:12:20 AM
Quote from: The15thMember on February 27, 2020, 12:50:00 PM
I gave all the hives roughly the same amount of honey going into the winter,
How did you give the hives honey and why did you have to? Sometimes the strongest hives don't make it. Part of that can be mites. The strongest hives in fall could have the highest mite infestation. For those that treat this is why they do it in the fall.

Last fall going into winter I had 4 hives. 1 was very strong, 2 were average, and 1 was weak. I had already pulled the honey I felt comfortable with pulling in July, since I wanted the sourwood honey. So before winter the strong hive had way more than enough honey for winter, the one average hive was right on the mark of what they needed, the other average hive was a little under what they needed, and the weak hive was about halfway to what they needed. So I just took the surplus from the big hive and gave it to the hives that needed a little extra. The hive I am speaking of, the one that feels light, is the average hive that was a tad short going into winter, and if memory serves, I gave them only a frame or two.