Inspection of new hive

[Seeb]

Per Sawdust's suggestion, I stayed out of my newly hived bees for 2 weeks. Today I did that 2 week inspection and would like to give my reasoning for the choices I made, and get your thoughts on them[I'm trying to get my brain geared to bee think.

I'm using all medium sized brood boxes and there are 2 boxes on the hive. This is the 23rd day the bees have been in the hive.

~  Remember me saying that my 8 frame hive would easily hold 9 frames. Well with the frame feeder in there it would only hold 6 but there was a lot of play, so I thought it over and decided to take out the frame feeder, and put in a top feeder 1/2 gallon jar.  This would allow me to add 3 more frames in that one box. So I had everything laid out to make that change before going in.

~  I used the Altmiller smoking method and that worked out beautifully. smoker stayed lit, and bees were laid-back

~  The bees have been drawing comb in the top box, and have not even touched the bottom box of frames - though they were building comb on the outside of the frame feeder and on the inner sided of the inner cover. So I decided to swap the boxes, remembering that they like to build up, rather than down.

~  they have drawn all 6 frames and it was straight [I'm so proud of the girls]

~  I added the 3 new frames on the end where I removed the feeder.

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I'm not use to seeing the higher built cells of [what look to me like] pollen. Is this normal:

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Looks like I've got some nice brood

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So when closing up the hive, I did this: inner cover on top of the brood boxes , jar holder feeder covered with a deep super, then top cover. Is that correct or does the jar cover take the place of my normal inner cover?  I also plugged the extra entrance on that feeder cover so they could not use it. Heres the feeder cover I'm using

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I took the frame feeder that was about 1/2 full and set it up the hill away from the hive.

Should I wait longer than 2 more weeks to do another inspection since the 2nd brood box has not been touched? I will now be able to just lift the outer cover to fill the feeder

[Mamm7215]

The bullet dome shaped cells are drone brood.  Search here or youtube for queen cells and queen cups.  You want to make sure they're not making any, or if there's queen cups, no eggs/larvae in them.  That means they're fixing to swarm.  You're likely ok if there's a 2nd brood box and nothing in it.  There's lots of space to grow so they're likely happy with that.  If you are new you should inspect every 7-10 days so you get a good idea of what they're doing.

[Seeb]

The bullet dome shaped cells are drone brood.

Ah, I didn't think about that Mamm. There were no queen cups at all.  I just read this:
Too many drones in the hive means that your queen wasn't mated properly and is only laying unfertilized eggs. Drone cells are easy to recognize. They are domed and larger than worker bee cells. Typically, they are grouped together on the outer edge of a frame. If you find that the middle of your frame is composed of drone cells, most likely you have a "drone-laying" queen and she'll need to be replaced.

From what you see in my pictures, do you think I have this problem?

[Ben Framed]

Seeb, I am not in a position to check on my PC but looking on the phone screen, which is harder to distinguish, it seems you have both types of brood, drone and worker.  That is normal this time of year.  But remember, as BaaBees posted topic, this is a swarmy year it seems. I would follow Mamms advise of his inspection guide for added reassurance.

Phillip Hall

[The15thMember]

Those frames are beautifully drawn!  I can't speak to the use of the feeder shim or to what the meaning of the drones is, but I'd like to point out that if the hive is thinking about swarming, blank frames with no comb drawn do not count as space in the eyes of the bees.  When the bees are thinking about how much space there is in the hive, they are looking at cells available for the queen to lay in, and the undrawn blanks obviously have no cells.

The frame with the drone brood looks spotty to me, you have workers and drones together, which seems a little odd, and larva of different ages together on the frame (since there is capped and uncapped brood).  That could be an indication of a failing queen.  I'd rather someone more experienced than me gave their opinion though.     

[Kwalt]

It looks like you have at least some foundationless frames.

From Michael Bush?s web site:

Question:

Can I put a whole box of foundationless frames on a hive?

Answer:

Assuming we mean frames with comb guides, yes, you can. Usually this works fine. Sometimes because of a lack of a comb to use as a "ladder" to get up to the top bars, the bees start building comb up from the bottom bar. For this reason I prefer to have one frame of drawn comb or a full sheet of foundation in a super being added on. This isn't a problem when installing a package. Another reason for the one comb, though, is it's good insurance at getting the combs in the right direction. Another solution to them trying to build comb up, is to put the empty box under the current box so they can work down.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm

I have personally experienced comb built up from the bottom after adding a full box of frames with no foundation. It?s a lesson I?ll not forget. You should be fine with a mix of frame types.

Kevin


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Seeb]

Thanks so much for all the input

Kwalt - on the brood box that the bees are working - every other frame was foundation-less, but the second box, the one they have not touched - there is no foundation. On the frames with no foundation, there is a starter strip. I can go back in this second box and add foundation to every other frame. 

The frame with the drone brood looks spotty to me, you have workers and drones together, which seems a little odd, and larva of different ages together on the frame (since there is capped and uncapped brood).  That could be an indication of a failing queen.  I'd rather someone more experienced than me gave their opinion though.   

I agree. Four of the 6 frames looked good to me, but on one side of one frame, and both sides of another frame it is as you describe. 

Here are more pics for observation

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I am not in a position to check on my PC but looking on the phone screen, which is harder to distinguish, it seems you have both types of brood, drone and worker

I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one that can't see detail on a mobile phone.  You say it's normal to have both types brood this time of year, when you get a chance to view on your PC, I would like to hear what you think

[Seeb]

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[Ben Framed]

>I have personally experienced comb built up from the bottom after adding a full box of frames with no foundation. It?s a
  lesson I?ll not forget. You should be fine with a mix of frame types.

It would be nice if you had some drawn comb to add. As others have said, keep a close eye on them. If you do find capped queen cells, Personally, I would split.
I have done cutouts where the comb was rubber-banded in a previously empty frame with a guide bar on top, leaving a gap inbetween the top of the comb and the empty (drawbar), and the bees filled in the gaps just fine. Good luck Seeb

Phillip Hall 

[Seeb]

It would be nice if you had some drawn comb to add.

Thanks Phillip, and everyone - I don't have any drawn comb [except the 6 frames in the hive now].  So this is what I plan to do this afternoon after the rain moves out. Please feel free to chime in if you have other suggestions. I expect to be out there by 2;30

1. load wax foundation in frames and replace 1/2 of the blank frames with these.  I know it's not the same as drawn comb but i'm thinking it's better than nothing, whether they swarm or not, since I don't want them to build from the bottom up.

2. take off that extra inner cover. I'm thinking it will just make the hive too hot

3. Get another hive ready - because I think if they are this far along in preparation, there's not much I can do to stop them.

4. Read all I can find on making a split

I figure today is the best time to go in and do these couple of things since I already disturbed their work yesterday, and since I switched the boxes yesterday, I won't have to disturb the bottom box with the 6 frames.

Do you think I should go back in and look for the queen [I didn't look for her in my inspection yesterday] or just wait until I do a 5 to 7 day check [or a split] to figure that out.

[sc-bee]

The bees at first are going to put more drone size cells in a foundationless frame. No matter how may you take out they want that fondationless drone comb.

[Seeb]

The bees at first are going to put more drone size cells in a foundationless frame. No matter how may you take out they want that fondationless drone comb.

SC - I really appreciate your input. So are you saying [forgive my thickness] that seeing drone cells like in the pictures posted is normal, and does not necessarily mean it will swarm?
Member gave a perfect description: The frame with the drone brood looks spotty to me, you have workers and drones together, which seems a little odd, and larva of different ages together on the frame (since there is capped and uncapped brood). 
Is this normal for foundation-less hives? Thanks

[Ben Framed]

>  I don't want them to build from the bottom up.

Seeb, I have never had bees build comb from the bottom up. They hang from the starter bar, and begin there, working their way down using gravity as their guide. This is why it is so important to make sure your hives are level when going foundation-less. The example I gave above was to show how bees improvise in a situation. Even then, they filled in the gap from the top down. You can use foundation if you choose, perhaps every other frame and this will perhaps give them a head start?  Just keep an eye on them, looking for queen cells. It will be ok to check them every 7 days without a problem in most cases.

Phillip Hall

[Seeb]

Got it - thanks Phillip.  I really appreciate all the help

[Ben Framed]

Got it - thanks Phillip.  I really appreciate all the help

Your welcome Seeb. Let me add, I would not worry too much about the drone comb, later when they have built up enough, you can use these for honey supers. They will store honey in drone combs just fine.

Phillip

[CoolBees]

...
Is this normal for foundation-less hives? Thanks

Yes - those pics look perfectly normal to me. My bees draw all kinds of mixed foundationless comb, with patches of drones, workers, etc. Later in the year, they will backfill the drone come (flow permitting). Stronger, bigger hives will be more likely to draw entire frames of one type of cell ... including multiple frames of drones in spring.

[Seeb]

Yes - those pics look perfectly normal to me

Y'all are so good, and are a wonderful resource for me. 

I've already loaded wax foundation in 4 frames, so will go ahead and replace every other blank frame with that this afternoon. I figure it won't hurt anything. 
Given all the input, and the fact that I'm positive there were no queen cells when I checked yesterday, I will give it another 7 days before I do another full hive inspection, and will still work on getting a second hive ready.
Thanks to each and everyone of you -
Aurelia

[sc-bee]

It is hard to look at a snap shot and evaluate a colony. And add to that these are foundation-less frames and new colony of bees may draw them different the first time around but settle in later?
With that said:
-Yes spotty pattern but again that could be to the inconsistently drawn comb with the foundation less (but some of it looks a little odd). Leave a hole in a perfectly good frame of wax foundation and the bees will put drone size comb in it. At first they just like to add drone comb to new empty space.
-Yes I have seen worker and drone in the same frame
-Swarming- I see nothing that would indicated swarming at this point but as said above usable comb space is critical with swarm control and not just hive space
-You stated "Adding 4 wax foundation" (wax or plastic) they are not created equal and you will find bees will treat them all differently when mixed in the same hive in particular if all are mixed in the same box. IMHO in order they prefer if in the same box if inserted into the cluster- Open space, wax foundation, and plastic.
-Adding the new frames- Move a bottom completely drawn frame with bees/brood up to the center of the top box to draw the bees up into box two. In the slot below where you removed the frame add an empty foundation-less frame between two fully drawn combs. The two fully drawn frames on either side are a guide. You can do the same with foundation but the guides are needed more for the foundation-less.

Just curious why did you try foundation-less on your first hive. IMHO a pretty good leaning curve first go.....but plenty will disagree that is just my take on it. Plastic can also be a major PIA....

[FloridaGardener]

Seeb,
     Drones are a big draw on the hive's resources, and they know it.  I've seen where the drone cells are spotty, sometimes because the workers pulled some drone brood and left them outside the hive.  Their reasons may be: cold snap in spring temps (chilled brood); cessation in a flow; and what in my perception was workers culling drones that had mites.

        Beekeeing is incredibly regional.  It's affected by: what's blooming now within a few miles of your apiary...your temperature... rainy days when the bees don't forage... no rain which dries up the nectar flow... hive location such as a windy spot/sunny spot/shade. 

       There's a helpful thread here about brood nest "manipulation" and the gist of it is: Don't break up the brood nest in an effort to make the bees expand faster.   https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=53468.0

         I did an experiment [for SHB monitoring] where I put a swarm in a double medium with 20 empty frames, using a guardian 3" top entrance (bottom entrance blocked off).  Two empty, straight, naturally-built combs were placed at the top corner for them to land on, and polish for the queen.

         In three weeks these bees filled 9 frames in the top box and were festooning in the bottom box.  Every comb is beautifully straight. The nest is a perfect ellipse.  It's not quite attached at the corners yet. Beautiful.
I'm leaving it... I won't pull brood from it, or add brood to it, or pyramid brood up... just keep tabs.  You may enjoy chronicling how the bees build naturally, by leaving the foundation sheets at the edges of the box, just to hold pollen/honey stores.

        For your colony, it's seems early on for them to swarm.  They may abscond if conditions are bad, but life there looks good!  And, you may want to research the effect of drones on a colony. Some say leaving drones, as opposed to culling them, makes happier bees.

[Seeb]

Thank you SC - I had to look up what IMHO meant - lol

I used to keep bees many years ago [never foundation-less though] so some things I remember, and some not. I inherited my first bees when I bought a working farm, so do not have much experience with new hives. I have also assisted others with their bee's when they've needed extra hands throughout the years.
I also tried a box of plastic frames, again years ago and did not like them at all, so will never work with them again.

Just curious why did you try foundation-less on your first hive?
It just makes sense to me.  I tend to do the closest thing to "real" in my life, i.e. I cook from scratch, make my own baking powder, flavorings, pickles, preserves, etc, and when it comes to honey, I like comb honey a lot. I'm a hobbiest beek, just want honey for myself and for some gifts.