What did you do in your Apiary/Bee yard today?

[The15thMember]

I put them in across five frames but coverage per frame was not the best. I don't really have an answer to that. Every frame in the bottom has some bees on it. They have access to ten frames in the nuc, the five with brood and the five with pollen and nectar. Then on top, above the inner cover, are five frames with nectar and some pollen that they can clean out.

If they are barely covering 5 frames, then they likely should only have 5 frames.  I mean, I understand that they need stores, so maybe I could justify them having 10 frames, but those ones above the inner cover are probably going to get invaded by wax moths and beetles.  I doubt the bees will move the pollen around.  They may move the nectar down, but if they don't in a couple of days, I'd absolutely remove that top box.  That's just way too much space for the bees to protect. 

And I got 4 mites in the nuc at last test about six weeks ago and 1 in the larger hive at the same time.

I personally wouldn't treat again with those numbers unless the mite drop you are seeing is huge (like 100+ mites).  I personally wouldn't have treated a hive at all with numbers that low, but that is just me. 

[Terri Yaki]

OK, thanks. And another question...What would I look for in the swarm hive as a threshold to move a frame of brood over and if that's doable, should I move it covered with bees?

[The15thMember]

So, when you say the nuc has 5 frames of brood, how much brood is on each frame?  Like, what's the rough percentage of cells containing babies on each frame?  And same question for the swarm hive, do they have frames with wall-to-wall brood or are their brood frames looking a little sparse?  Basically what I'm trying to understand is how starved is the nuc for brood and bees, and how much surplus does the swarm hive have.  I wouldn't want you compromise the swarm hive for the nuc, which is potentially a losing battle at this point.     

[NigelP]

Personally I wouldn't add anything to an EFB infected hive. It either dies or survives. You are wasting unborn  bees from a hive that might need them to get through the winter. Your queen will now be laying winter bees that are physiologically different from your short lived summer bees and you do not want to be giving them to another hive. And I certainly would not add a frame covered in bees as many of those bees will return to their original hive. A great way to possibly infect your swarm hive.
I'd simply reduce the number of frames to as few as possible in the nuc. Not sure if we use the same definition of Boxes/NUC, But in UK nuc  boxes only hold 5 or 6 frames whereas our hives hold 11 or 12. in total. From your descriptions you want to  get what remaining bees you have into a nuc to give you max density of bees.  Burn any frames you don't use as these will be infected with EFB bacteria.

[Terri Yaki]

The nuc has very little capped brood and a small cluster of larvae. Not enough capped to even talk about. I guess what I'm wondering is if there's enough time left this season for them to hatch enough to make it through the winter if I gave them some brood out of the swarm hive. The swarm hive has well filled frames but we didn't go all the way through it so I don't know how many.

[Terri Yaki]

Personally I wouldn't add anything to an EFB infected hive. It either dies or survives. You are wasting unborn  bees from a hive that might need them to get through the winter. Your queen will now be laying winter bees that are physiologically different from your short lived summer bees and you do not want to be giving them to another hive. And I certainly would not add a frame covered in bees as many of those bees will return to their original hive. A great way to possibly infect your swarm hive.
I'd simply reduce the number of frames to as few as possible in the nuc. Not sure if we use the same definition of Boxes/NUC, But in UK nuc  boxes only hold 5 or 6 frames whereas our hives hold 11 or 12. in total. From your descriptions you want to  get what remaining bees you have into a nuc to give you max density of bees.  Burn any frames you don't use as these will be infected with EFB bacteria.

The inspector didn't indicate that EFB was a death sentence to anything and he also wasn't sure that it was EFB or just starvation and mites. He definitely said that burning the hardware was not needed on this.

[NigelP]

Your bees Terri, do as you like with them.
There are lateral flow tests available to confirm the presence of  EFB (or AFB). They are very similar to those covid lateral flow devices. Surprised your inspectors don't carry or use them.  Very amateurish IMHO.
Now ask yourself how can it be starvation, given the copious quantities of feed you say you have been giving them?
I've also explained how you can get a rough assessment of mite levels without killing bees. I'll give you a second method that again doesn't involve killing bees, look for deformed wings on your adult bees. If you see several then your mite levels are probably high, if non then it's not mites. Your inspector should/would have noticed this if it was obvious.
Me thinks this hive is doomed, best to bite bullet and start again next spring, don't risk taking resources from your good surviving hive. But they are your bees not mine.
Now ask yourself another question, if you reuse the frames next season and get the same problem with a new hive then you personally will be responsible for killing a lot of bees; instead of taking a common sense approach and binning a few potentially contaminated frames that cost a few pounds (sorry dollars). With bees it's always better safe than sorry.

[Terri Yaki]

Different hive that was guzzling syrup all season. Starvation or cold out from not enough bees in attendance to cover the numbers of larvae. Bee numbers were down and brood was spotty and spread out. One mite was visible on the back of one bee, inspector saw that and indicated that one in sight there indicated infestation. Number of mites on bottom board after treatment would support that but why didn't we find them when we checked? Did too much time pass since last testing? I think it was about six weeks since last test, might have been more. Did we not shake the jar of bees enough to knock mites loose, giving a bad test result? If there is a way to test for EFB, I'd be open to obtaining it.

[NigelP]

Google EFB testing kit. I have several coming up on ebay UK and several retailers. If, for some reason,  not available in the states let me know.

[Terri Yaki]

OK, they are available from bee supply shops. I'll get one and have it on hand. It looks like several different afflictions can cause the same symptoms as EFB so I'm not going to get too antsy just yet. I'm thinking that I failed one way or another on mite control and will be more attentive on it. I don't know how it escaped us though, as I thought I had tested enough. From what I am reading though, I am surprised that the inspector wasn't more on top of it.

[The15thMember]

I personally feel like in this instance, since the colony is so clearly stressed from lack of food and lack of normal brood nest operations, the EFB is likely a symptom of that situation, even if it is EFB.  From what I have heard and read, EFB is a bacteria that is often found in the hive environment under normal circumstances, but can manifest with symptoms when the colony is under stress, since the bees' immune response is unable to fight it off.  I agree with Nigel that moving adult bees into this colony is a bad idea since they will return home, and adding brood is likely a waste, since the colony will struggle to care for a sudden flush of babies.  If their brood nest is that small, you need to get them all the way down to the single nuc box, Terri.  They need to be compressed so they can attend to their hive tasks with efficiency or they have no chance.  Going forward, if you want to be safe, I would recommend not reusing any brood comb from the infected colonies, and I probably wouldn't feed your other colony their honey either.  If they don't make it, just give the woodenware a good soaking with vinegar and then sit it out in the sun.  Personally, I'd feel comfortable reusing it at the point.         

One mite was visible on the back of one bee, inspector saw that and indicated that one in sight there indicated infestation. Number of mites on bottom board after treatment would support that but why didn't we find them when we checked? Did too much time pass since last testing? I think it was about six weeks since last test, might have been more. Did we not shake the jar of bees enough to knock mites loose, giving a bad test result?

Six weeks is plenty of time for a mite infestation to develop, especially in a stressed colony.  Also keep in mind that if the colony went essentially broodless first, all those mites will have nowhere to go but onto bees.  Broodless colonies will always have much higher mite counts, simply because none of the mites are hiding in the capped brood.  We do generally say that if you are seeing mites on bees, that is in indicator of an advanced infestation, but in a colony with a very small population, you could conceivable just happen to see just one.  Roughly how many mites did you see drop from the treatment? 

[beesnweeds]

OK, they are available from bee supply shops. I'll get one and have it on hand. It looks like several different afflictions can cause the same symptoms as EFB so I'm not going to get too antsy just yet. I'm thinking that I failed one way or another on mite control and will be more attentive on it. I don't know how it escaped us though, as I thought I had tested enough. From what I am reading though, I am surprised that the inspector wasn't more on top of it.

You're not going to find an EFB test kit, so don't worry about it.  You would have to send a sample off to Beltsville for testing.  Forget about the nuc and primary hive they aren't going to overwinter.  It's a learning experience, I lost plenty of hives when I was a beginner.  Focus on the swarm hive, based on your video it doesn't have nearly enough stores to survive.  But it could survive if you take off the top deep and put on the full medium.  Feed it 2:1 until it gets too cold, probably around mid October.  Between Thanksgiving and Christmas give it an OA dribble and chances are pretty good you will have a nice colony in the spring. 

[NigelP]

You're not going to find an EFB test kit, so don't worry about it.  You would have to send a sample off to Beltsville for testing.

Why wouldn't he find an EFB kit? Plenty available.

[Terri Yaki]

I personally feel like in this instance, since the colony is so clearly stressed from lack of food and lack of normal brood nest operations, the EFB is likely a symptom of that situation, even if it is EFB.  From what I have heard and read, EFB is a bacteria that is often found in the hive environment under normal circumstances, but can manifest with symptoms when the colony is under stress, since the bees' immune response is unable to fight it off.  I agree with Nigel that moving adult bees into this colony is a bad idea since they will return home, and adding brood is likely a waste, since the colony will struggle to care for a sudden flush of babies.  If their brood nest is that small, you need to get them all the way down to the single nuc box, Terri.  They need to be compressed so they can attend to their hive tasks with efficiency or they have no chance.  Going forward, if you want to be safe, I would recommend not reusing any brood comb from the infected colonies, and I probably wouldn't feed your other colony their honey either.  If they don't make it, just give the woodenware a good soaking with vinegar and then sit it out in the sun.  Personally, I'd feel comfortable reusing it at the point.

This all sounds reasonable to me and I'll compress them today. Are you saying that vinegar should kill any EFB?           

Six weeks is plenty of time for a mite infestation to develop, especially in a stressed colony.  Also keep in mind that if the colony went essentially broodless first, all those mites will have nowhere to go but onto bees.  Broodless colonies will always have much higher mite counts, simply because none of the mites are hiding in the capped brood.  We do generally say that if you are seeing mites on bees, that is in indicator of an advanced infestation, but in a colony with a very small population, you could conceivable just happen to see just one.  Roughly how many mites did you see drop from the treatment?

I don't know how many I saw and I'm not good at guestimating numbers but I'd say they were a couple of inches or so apart on the board. If what I saw was mites, which I do think they were. I'll check that board closer today and see if I can make an estimate on numbers or density on the board.

[Terri Yaki]

You're not going to find an EFB test kit, so don't worry about it.  You would have to send a sample off to Beltsville for testing.  Forget about the nuc and primary hive they aren't going to overwinter.  It's a learning experience, I lost plenty of hives when I was a beginner.  Focus on the swarm hive, based on your video it doesn't have nearly enough stores to survive.  But it could survive if you take off the top deep and put on the full medium.  Feed it 2:1 until it gets too cold, probably around mid October.  Between Thanksgiving and Christmas give it an OA dribble and chances are pretty good you will have a nice colony in the spring.

I did find EFB test kits for about $15 but that all sounds plausible to me. Thanks

[beesnweeds]

Why wouldn't he find an EFB kit? Plenty available.

Yes, in the UK not the US.  Currently Vita isn't selling EFB test kits in the US due to regulations and registration costs. 

Also, Vita recommends that UK beekeepers send samples to the National Bee Unit.

https://www.vita-europe.com/beehealth/blog/vita-foulbrood-diagnostic-kits-shortage/

[beesnweeds]

I did find EFB test kits for about $15

Who's the supplier?

[The15thMember]

Are you saying that vinegar should kill any EFB?           

I don't honestly know if it does or doesn't kill EFB specifically, but vinegar is a general disinfectant, as is the UV radiation of sunlight.  Anytime I have a deadout and I'm suspicious disease played a roll, that is what I do, and I have yet to have a colony reinfected by anything.  Just luck?  Could be, but like I said, that is what I would do and I would feel comfortable after that, especially if I didn't reuse the equipment immediately.   

[Terri Yaki]

I did find EFB test kits for about $15

Who's the supplier?

Betterbee but as I look closer, it's 'temporarily' out of stock.

https://www.betterbee.com/pest-management-and-medications/efbtest.asp

[NigelP]

Just order one from abroad or I'll happily buy some and send them to you ....at cost.