Winter Solstice and Starve Outs

[beesnweeds]

For my area there's a lot less risk.  It's much easier to feed bees in warmer early spring temperatures than below zero winter temperatures. 

[Acebird]

Many, many hives starve in the Adirondacks.  And it can happen to those that feed.  Bees are gamblers and they can't control mother nature.
When someone claims their bees froze what really happens in most cases is that they starved.

[Ben Framed]

When someone claims their bees froze what really happens in most cases is that they starved.

Brian I think you might be right, in a lot of cases starvation will be the couplet...

Phillip

[Kathyp]

February is usually the biggest danger month in my neck of the PNW.  I swear by the dry sugar on the inner cover or over the box in some way.  It absorbs moisture and gets nice and crusty.  It's easy to check and if they are eating it, they probably have run out of their own stores.  If it starts to warm up before anything blooms they'll go through a few lbs of it and I don't have to worry about introducing moisture with syrup. 

Might not work as well in a dry area, but here it works great.

[Ben Framed]

February is usually the biggest danger month in my neck of the PNW.  I swear by the dry sugar on the inner cover or over the box in some way.  It absorbs moisture and gets nice and crusty.  It's easy to check and if they are eating it, they probably have run out of their own stores.  If it starts to warm up before anything blooms they'll go through a few lbs of it and I don't have to worry about introducing moisture with syrup. 

Might not work as well in a dry area, but here it works great.

Kathy your method and explanation is my experience as well. This is my go to method. The advantages are real......

Phillip

[beesnweeds]

I inspect dead outs in the Adirondacks for new beekeepers every spring.  Almost none of them starve, but give the appearance of starvation.   Typically what happens is the beekeeper doesnt treat for mites or doesnt follow up on a mite count to see if the treatment worked.  In some cases just poorly timed treatments as well.  Brood frame cells are lined with mite feces and some with perforated cappings.  As viruses get worse bees struggle to collect enough stores.  There's a beautiful etching by Theodore R Davis 1868 " Working down the Bee Tree "  in the Adirondacks (for whatever reason I cant get it to attach to my post).  People in the Adirondacks would bee hunt during the golden rod bloom and thats how they got their sweets for the winter.  Before varroa and the viruses they vector the Adirondacks where full of honey bees.

[Ben Framed]

I inspect dead outs in the Adirondacks for new beekeepers every spring.  Almost none of them starve, but give the appearance of starvation.   Typically what happens is the beekeeper doesnt treat for mites or doesnt follow up on a mite count to see if the treatment worked.  In some cases just poorly timed treatments as well.  Brood frame cells are lined with mite feces and some with perforated cappings.  As viruses get worse bees struggle to collect enough stores.  There's a beautiful etching by Theodore R Davis 1868 " Working down the Bee Tree "  in the Adirondacks (for whatever reason I cant get it to attach to my post).  People in the Adirondacks would bee hunt during the golden rod bloom and thats how they got their sweets for the winter.  Before varroa and the viruses they vector the Adirondacks where full of honey bees.

Good points beesnweeds. When I was a boy wild hives, feral hives, could be readily found in my area also. Not so much anymore and I firmly believe the reason for this is parasites and the diseases they carry. I am including SHB another parasite of the colony, for contributing to less wild hives as well. I do not know if SHB carry virus but I am convinced that they hurt wild hives by the damage they inflict that we do know about...

Even still, iddees good point of explanation is 'solid good advice', worthy of paying 'close' attention too for beekeepers. Especially new beekeepers in my opinion..

Phillip

[yes2matt]

I inspect dead outs in the Adirondacks for new beekeepers every spring.  Almost none of them starve, but give the appearance of starvation.   Typically what happens is the beekeeper doesnt treat for mites or doesnt follow up on a mite count to see if the treatment worked.  In some cases just poorly timed treatments as well.  Brood frame cells are lined with mite feces and some with perforated cappings.  As viruses get worse bees struggle to collect enough stores.  There's a beautiful etching by Theodore R Davis 1868 " Working down the Bee Tree "  in the Adirondacks (for whatever reason I cant get it to attach to my post).  People in the Adirondacks would bee hunt during the golden rod bloom and thats how they got their sweets for the winter.  Before varroa and the viruses they vector the Adirondacks where full of honey bees.

Starvation is complicated, isn't it! If it was just lack of caloric intake, it would be a simple matter of giving sugar to the colony.  But there have to be enough bees which are strong enough and with healthy enough gut biome to get to the sugars(or their honey), invert the sugars in their gut, then turn the calories into heat, etc. 

[G3farms]

Don't forget to add that there needs to be enough of a mass of bees, "cluster", to actually form a blanket of insulation to keep the heat inside the cluster of bees.

Does that make sense?!?!

Just a couple of bees can not create enough heat and also contain it to survive a the cold snap.

[Ben Framed]

Don't forget to add that there needs to be enough of a mass of bees, "cluster", to actually form a blanket of insulation to keep the heat inside the cluster of bees.

Does that make sense?!?!

Just a couple of bees can not create enough heat and also contain it to survive a the cold snap.

Makes perfect sense G3

Phillip

[Bill Murray]

So let?s see if I?m following this conversation.
If you open your hive and it has dead bees with their heads in the cells, a pile of bees on the bottom board and no honey they starved.
If you open the hive and have a ball of bees still over the bees with their heads in the cells, (which have not yet fallen)  spanning over 3 frames of dead brood,(that the ants and yellow jackets haven?t eaten yet) and are still visible. And there is honey and nectar that is 1.5 inches away, (that has not been robbed out yet). Did they freeze or not move of the brood and starve? Or did they die from varroa, nosema, or some other malady?        Just wondering.

[Michael Bush]

I think it's complicated.  Sometimes the reason they couldn't get to stores is also because the cluster was too small and that could be from other things like Varroa, etc..  But sometimes they are just stuck on brood and won't move and sometimes cluster size is due to race or a late start (swarm, queenlessness etc.)  Problems tend to compound into other problems.

[Ben Framed]

I agree with Mr Bush while adding to those complications; One reason for the small cluster in the first place could be the fact of varroa taking their toll even though plenty of stores were collected before Fall and before the numbers dropped going into Winter. I am thinking beesnweees touched on this without going into detail when he pointed out varroa and the viruses they carry.

Phillip





.

[G3farms]

Some bees will brood up early thinking the cold is over, as the brood patch expands of course bees will sand on it to keep it warm. This makes the cluster size smaller as the bees spread out on the brood to keep it warm Then a cold snap comes through and the bees standing on the brood all freeze along with the brood itself and if the cluster is too small then all will be lost.

Have seen this on strong healthy thriving hives in early spring. Then the small hive next to it survives because they have not yet brooded up.

I lost only one hive during the single digits this past week. A couple of hives have not stopped doing orientation flights all winter yet, go figure.

[Michael Bush]

>Have seen this on strong healthy thriving hives in early spring. Then the small hive next to it survives because they have not yet brooded up.

I have seen the same.  If I could only find a solution to the problem I might cut my winter losses a lot.  Maybe the secret is an indoor place that stays dark so they won't brood up, but indoor wintering is a whole different problem.  Maybe this is why cellaring seemed to work well in the 1800s.  They bees didn't brood up.  Some of the old magazines I have from that era recommend stealing every last scrap of pollen from every hive so they won't brood up.

[yes2matt]

>Have seen this on strong healthy thriving hives in early spring. Then the small hive next to it survives because they have not yet brooded up.

I have seen the same.  If I could only find a solution to the problem I might cut my winter losses a lot.  Maybe the secret is an indoor place that stays dark so they won't brood up, but indoor wintering is a whole different problem.  Maybe this is why cellaring seemed to work well in the 1800s.  They bees didn't brood up.  Some of the old magazines I have from that era recommend stealing every last scrap of pollen from every hive so they won't brood up.

Them dudes of olde knew their business.   Did they go in and dig pollen out of the cells? or just trap it out before winter solstice?  If the latter, how did they calculate so they had strong winter bees and then no new bees til ... when? after last frost? that seems extreme but I wonder what you've read.

[The15thMember]

>Have seen this on strong healthy thriving hives in early spring. Then the small hive next to it survives because they have not yet brooded up.

I have seen the same.  If I could only find a solution to the problem I might cut my winter losses a lot.  Maybe the secret is an indoor place that stays dark so they won't brood up, but indoor wintering is a whole different problem.  Maybe this is why cellaring seemed to work well in the 1800s.  They bees didn't brood up.  Some of the old magazines I have from that era recommend stealing every last scrap of pollen from every hive so they won't brood up.

Them dudes of olde knew their business.   Did they go in and dig pollen out of the cells? or just trap it out before winter solstice?  If the latter, how did they calculate so they had strong winter bees and then no new bees til ... when? after last frost? that seems extreme but I wonder what you've read.

In reading through really old ABJ's lately, I've noticed this too.  People were very keen on NOT having the bees build up early, which is kind of the opposite of how we think about it nowadays.  I mean, we obviously don't want them to brood up too early, but we often want them to brood up as early as possible.  I've haven't seen any references about stealing pollen personally, but several people talking about cellaring, and making sure that if you can't cellar that your hives are in the shade in the winter so the bees won't fly on a warm day when the sun hits the hives. 

[yes2matt]

Anybody here keep bees?

Hey Wally, just to let you know your thread here prompted me to go check, and I put on about 40 pounds of candy.  I'm in a good location here in the city and my colonies had wet nectar a week after solstice, but when I went to check them again I decided to put on another 40 pounds of candy. Even with sugar at these prices, it's cheap insurance.  So yeah we got derailed but it did probably save some bees. 

Hope you and all yours are well.

[yes2matt]

>Have seen this on strong healthy thriving hives in early spring. Then the small hive next to it survives because they have not yet brooded up.

I have seen the same.  If I could only find a solution to the problem I might cut my winter losses a lot.  Maybe the secret is an indoor place that stays dark so they won't brood up, but indoor wintering is a whole different problem.  Maybe this is why cellaring seemed to work well in the 1800s.  They bees didn't brood up.  Some of the old magazines I have from that era recommend stealing every last scrap of pollen from every hive so they won't brood up.

Them dudes of olde knew their business.   Did they go in and dig pollen out of the cells? or just trap it out before winter solstice?  If the latter, how did they calculate so they had strong winter bees and then no new bees til ... when? after last frost? that seems extreme but I wonder what you've read.

In reading through really old ABJ's lately, I've noticed this too.  People were very keen on NOT having the bees build up early, which is kind of the opposite of how we think about it nowadays.  I mean, we obviously don't want them to brood up too early, but we often want them to brood up as early as possible.  I've haven't seen any references about stealing pollen personally, but several people talking about cellaring, and making sure that if you can't cellar that your hives are in the shade in the winter so the bees won't fly on a warm day when the sun hits the hives.

My favorite old-timer book is "A year's work in an out-apiary" and Doolittle absolutely cellared them.  I'd have to go review it, don't remember him talking about robbing/trapping pollen.  They can't get any (fresh) if they're in the cellar tho.

[max2]

"In reading through really old ABJ's lately, I've noticed this too.  People were very keen on NOT having the bees build up early, which is kind of the opposite of how we think about it nowadays.  I mean, we obviously don't want them to brood up too early, but we often want them to brood up as early as possible.  I've haven't seen any references about stealing pollen personally, but several people talking about cellaring, and making sure that if you can't cellar that your hives are in the shade in the winter so the bees won't fly on a warm day when the sun hits the hives. "

Probably the mainreason why i want them to brood up early is....I'm getting all these messages in winter for nuc's.
I think I have allowed the pressure to start making splits too early some years.
No more!