Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed

[The15thMember]

Would the new foragers have killed the queen?

No, but if the initial die off was caused by robbers it might have started again.
If I assessed a hive as looking good I don't mess with it.

Ok, thanks.  I've never done a position swap before, so I just wanted to be sure.  I haven't seen any robbing since I moved this colony into different equipment, and I have been keeping a close eye on them. 

[Ben Framed]

Sorry you lost your queen Member..

Phillip

[Michael Bush]

I have seen a queen balled by switching positions.  Usually she doesn't get killed though, but it wouldn't surprise me.

[The15thMember]

This colony made about 8 queen cells.  Obviously I don't need to reduce them to prevent swarming, as the colony is much too small.  I either heard or read somewhere recently about a technique where you take down the first capped queen cells and leave the uncapped ones, since the younger larvae are the last to cap, but are the most desirable for making a queens.  In this situation, would it be a good idea for me to remove the older QCs?  Or would it be better to just let the bees know best and leave all the cells?   

[Michael Bush]

I never remove queen cells.  The idea is that bees will start with too old of a larvae.  I don't believe that.  Neither did these beekeeping greats:

Jay Smith, from Better Queens
"It has been stated by a number of beekeepers who should know better (including myself) that the bees are in such a hurry to rear a queen that they choose larvae too old for best results. later observation has shown the fallacy of this statement and has convinced me that bees do the very best that can be done under existing circumstances.
"The inferior queens caused by using the emergency method is because the bees cannot tear down the tough cells in the old combs lined with cocoons. The result is that the bees fill the worker cells with bee milk floating the larvae out the opening of the cells, then they build a little queen cell pointing downward. The larvae cannot eat the bee milk back in the bottom of the cells with the result that they are not well fed. However, if the colony is strong in bees, are well fed and have new combs, they can rear the best of queens. And please note-- they will never make such a blunder as choosing larvae too old."--Jay Smith
Quinby seems to agree:

"I want new comb for brood, as cells can be worked over out of that, better than from old and tough. New comb must be carefully handled. If none but old comb is to be had, cut the cells down to one fourth inch in depth. The knife must be sharp to leave it smooth and not tear it."--Moses Quinby
C.C. Miller's view of emergency queens
"If it were true, as formerly believed, that queenless bees are in such haste to rear a queen that they will select a larva too old for the purpose, then it would hardly do to wait even nine days. A queen is matured in fifteen days from the time the egg is laid, and is fed throughout her larval lifetime on the same food that is given to a worker-larva during the first three days of its larval existence. So a worker-larva more than three days old, or more than six days from the laying of the egg would be too old for a good queen. If, now, the bees should select a larva more than three days old, the queen would emerge in less than nine days. I think no one has ever known this to occur. Bees do not prefer too old larvae. As a matter of fact bees do not use such poor judgment as to select larvae too old when larvae sufficiently young are present, as I have proven by direct experiment and many observations."--Fifty Years Among the Bees, C.C. Miller
A study:

David C. Gilley, David R. Tarpy, Benjamin B. Land: Effect of queen quality on interactions between workers and dueling queens in honeybee (Apis mellifera L.) colonies

Selection of high-quality queens by the workers during queen development has been demonstrated by Hatch et al. (1999), who found that during emergency queen rearing (the process by which workers rear queens from worker larvae to replace a queen that has died unexpectedly) workers preferentially destroyed queen cells built from older worker larvae. Despite selective behavior by the workers during queen rearing, considerable variation in quality exists among newly emerged adult queens (Eckert 1934; Clarke 1989; Fischer and Maul 1991). This variation in quality among queens gives workers the opportunity to benefit by selecting high quality queens that are fully developed, when the decision will be most accurate.

https://bushfarms.com/beesemergencyqueens.htm

[The15thMember]

I never remove queen cells.  The idea is that bees will start with too old of a larvae.  I don't believe that.  Neither did these beekeeping greats:

Jay Smith, from Better Queens
"It has been stated by a number of beekeepers who should know better (including myself) that the bees are in such a hurry to rear a queen that they choose larvae too old for best results. later observation has shown the fallacy of this statement and has convinced me that bees do the very best that can be done under existing circumstances.
"The inferior queens caused by using the emergency method is because the bees cannot tear down the tough cells in the old combs lined with cocoons. The result is that the bees fill the worker cells with bee milk floating the larvae out the opening of the cells, then they build a little queen cell pointing downward. The larvae cannot eat the bee milk back in the bottom of the cells with the result that they are not well fed. However, if the colony is strong in bees, are well fed and have new combs, they can rear the best of queens. And please note-- they will never make such a blunder as choosing larvae too old."--Jay Smith
Quinby seems to agree:

"I want new comb for brood, as cells can be worked over out of that, better than from old and tough. New comb must be carefully handled. If none but old comb is to be had, cut the cells down to one fourth inch in depth. The knife must be sharp to leave it smooth and not tear it."--Moses Quinby
C.C. Miller's view of emergency queens
"If it were true, as formerly believed, that queenless bees are in such haste to rear a queen that they will select a larva too old for the purpose, then it would hardly do to wait even nine days. A queen is matured in fifteen days from the time the egg is laid, and is fed throughout her larval lifetime on the same food that is given to a worker-larva during the first three days of its larval existence. So a worker-larva more than three days old, or more than six days from the laying of the egg would be too old for a good queen. If, now, the bees should select a larva more than three days old, the queen would emerge in less than nine days. I think no one has ever known this to occur. Bees do not prefer too old larvae. As a matter of fact bees do not use such poor judgment as to select larvae too old when larvae sufficiently young are present, as I have proven by direct experiment and many observations."--Fifty Years Among the Bees, C.C. Miller
A study:

David C. Gilley, David R. Tarpy, Benjamin B. Land: Effect of queen quality on interactions between workers and dueling queens in honeybee (Apis mellifera L.) colonies

Selection of high-quality queens by the workers during queen development has been demonstrated by Hatch et al. (1999), who found that during emergency queen rearing (the process by which workers rear queens from worker larvae to replace a queen that has died unexpectedly) workers preferentially destroyed queen cells built from older worker larvae. Despite selective behavior by the workers during queen rearing, considerable variation in quality exists among newly emerged adult queens (Eckert 1934; Clarke 1989; Fischer and Maul 1991). This variation in quality among queens gives workers the opportunity to benefit by selecting high quality queens that are fully developed, when the decision will be most accurate.

https://bushfarms.com/beesemergencyqueens.htm

Great!  Less work for me!    David Tarpy is actually my state extension apiarist. 

[Ben Framed]

This might not be related but you might want to check it out anyway Member.

https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=19859.msg150715#msg150715

[The15thMember]

As I mentioned on my swarm thread, I had another hive swarm this morning.  She's one of my favorite queens, and since I'm out of bottom boards, I decided to just combine the swarm with this small, struggling hive.  I put the swarm above them, with my double-screen board in between.  Tomorrow I'll remove the queen cells from the bottom box, give them a few days to get used to each other, and then remove the board.     

[The15thMember]

I removed the Snelgrove board today, and I did a quick check for brood in the top section with the queen, and dang it all if there wasn't any!  And I just took down all the QCs in the bottom box last week.    I couldn't find the queen either, although I'd seen her when I hived the swarm.  It was pretty chilly and windy today, and the bees were clustery on the frames, so I could have missed her.  Either something happened to her since I saw her last, or this isn't the queen I think it is, and instead she's a virgin who isn't laying yet.  I gave them a frame of eggs from their neighbors so they can make more QCs if they need to.     

[Kathyp]

And I just took down all the QCs in the bottom box last week. 

Some years ago I got some very good advice (for me) and that was never to remove queen cells.  Let the bees work it out.  I know there are different opinions on this, but bees seem good at making selections and fixing things if we let them. 

The downside might be that a swarmy hive will go with virgin queens, sometimes multiple virgin queens.  My feeling is that a swarmy hive is going to keep swarming no matter what I do. 

[The15thMember]

And I just took down all the QCs in the bottom box last week. 

Some years ago I got some very good advice (for me) and that was never to remove queen cells.  Let the bees work it out.  I know there are different opinions on this, but bees seem good at making selections and fixing things if we let them. 

The downside might be that a swarmy hive will go with virgin queens, sometimes multiple virgin queens.  My feeling is that a swarmy hive is going to keep swarming no matter what I do. 

I've heard that advice before, and while I don't personally abide by it (I leave two queen cells in a hive making a queen usually), I understand it has its benefits.  But in my case, I was combining a queenright swarm with a colony that had capped queen cells.  I had to destroy either the queen or the cells, otherwise the bees would have fought each other. 

[Ben Framed]

- "It was pretty chilly and windy today, and the bees were clustery on the frames, so I could have missed her." 

Yes, Possible

- "Either something happened to her since I saw her last, or this isn't the queen I think it is, and instead she's a virgin who isn't laying yet." 

Another legitimate possibly.
What color is she? Is she a Carmel colored queen, or a tiger striped queen which blends in well with the workers? If the latter, she will be more easily looked over or missed.

- "I gave them a frame of eggs from their neighbors so they can make more QCs if they need to."     

Good idea Reagan. If the queen is not there, as you know, you will have Queen Cells soon. 
Your thoughts on this are sound in my opinion.

Phillip

[The15thMember]

What color is she? Is she a Carmel colored queen, or a tiger striped queen which blends in well with the workers? If the latter, she will be more easily looked over or missed.

She is a darker queen, although if she is the mated queen I suspect, she isn't typically difficult to spot.  She's very calm and generally doesn't run when I pull the frame she is on.  Ironically her name is Snow White, only because her mother's name was Ravenna (if someone gets that obscure reference, I'll be shocked).  Ravenna was the tamest queen I have ever had; I saw her lay eggs on the frame in my hands multiple times.  I have 5 queens that are descended from her.         

[Kathyp]

She was Italian?   

[The15thMember]

She was Italian?   

  Good guess, but no.  I actually have no idea if she was Italian, although she wasn't colored like an Italian.  She and her colony usurped one of my hives, so I don't know anything about her breeding or where she came from.  I was happy to have her though, she was a far better queen than the one her bees killed.  And why, if she was named after a city in Italy, would I be compelled to name her daughter Snow White??     

[Kathyp]

And why, if she was named after a city in Italy, would I be compelled to name her daughter Snow White

You name your queens so...IDK?  And this   

https://justonesuitcase.com/2014/02/21/snow-white-and-the-seven-dwarfs-in-italy/

[The15thMember]

And why, if she was named after a city in Italy, would I be compelled to name her daughter Snow White

You name your queens so...IDK?  And this   

https://justonesuitcase.com/2014/02/21/snow-white-and-the-seven-dwarfs-in-italy/

Fascinating.  It is not quite that obscure!    If you want another hint, her other daughter is named Freya.

[Occam]

Snow White and the Huntsman, I believe it was 2011? 2012? Around there I'm pretty sure. Charlize Theron played her if I remember correctly

[The15thMember]

Snow White and the Huntsman, I believe it was 2011? 2012? Around there I'm pretty sure. Charlize Theron played her if I remember correctly

DING-DING-DING!  WE HAVE A WINNER!!  You have just won . . . A NEW CAR!!! 

Bravo!  We had just watched that movie when one of my hives was usurped, so I decided to name the usurper queen after the evil queen, even though the movie wasn't that great.  But then it turned out she became my favorite queen, so the joke was on me!    Plus now I'm stuck with a line of queens named after Disney princesses, because where else could I go from Snow White!    Her other daughter Freya is named after Queen Ravenna's sister in the even worse sequel The Huntsman: Winter's War.   

[Occam]

Snow White and the Huntsman, I believe it was 2011? 2012? Around there I'm pretty sure. Charlize Theron played her if I remember correctly

DING-DING-DING!  WE HAVE A WINNER!!  You have just won . . . A NEW CAR!!! 

Bravo!  We had just watched that movie when one of my hives was usurped, so I decided to name the usurper queen after the evil queen, even though the movie wasn't that great.  But then it turned out she became my favorite queen, so the joke was on me!    Plus now I'm stuck with a line of queens named after Disney princesses, because where else could I go from Snow White!    Her other daughter Freya is named after Queen Ravenna's sister in the even worse sequel The Huntsman: Winter's War.

I didn't bother with the sequel  couldn't make myself watch it