A General Hive Question

[Michael Bush]

Feeding constantly is the most common cause of swarming.  An in hive feeder is treated like a spill and will be stored anywhere with no feedback mechanism to stop.  In the fall (actually anytime) I would feed the thickest syrup I can make, which for me seems to be 5:3.  Thick syrup keeps better and in the fall it's important that it's not too wet and gets cured well.  I would certainly not be feeding during any kind of a flow unless it's late and the hives are light.

[Terri Yaki]

Thanks, MB

[Terri Yaki]

Yesterday, my mentor came over and we went through all three hives and tested for mites. Hive #1 all looked good with eggs, larvae and brood so we're back to life, at least for now. We have another heat wave coming so we'll see if that slows them down again. Anyhow, only got one mite out of that hive so all is good. Nuc hive that I split off of that hive had four and he gave me his thoughts, along with the thoughts of others that he collected off of others. I just listened but from what I have gleaned from here, four mites during a dearth is not that big deal and since it's supposed to get into the 90s for the next few days, treatment is not an option but another check after the heat wave is in order. Eggs, larvae and brood were also found here. My swarm hive looked kind of weak to us for some reason so we didn't even test it but we did find eggs, larvae and brood so better days are hopefully coming. I had previously moved a frame of brood into the upper brood box in this hive but we reversed that move and took out some empty frames to make room for two or three frames with brood on them. The bottom box is otherwise getting filled with nectar, probably from the syrup I've been feeding them.

[Bill Murray]

On the feeding issue. I think I stated before if you want weight, interior feeders are the way to go. For comb drawing 1 part sugar 2 parts water. Make your own feeder lids, small, teeny tiny holes only 3. make them work for it. Also a huge amount of house bees. They will be hanging around just waiting with wax glands working.

[Terri Yaki]

This is the first I've heard thinner than 1:1 or is that a typo? I have one line of about six holes. Some lids have bigger holes than others but 3/16" is the biggest. I pair it with one with about 1/8" holes and the one with larger holes gets empty first. My mentor suggests that I add more holes but they're drinking a quart a day, how much more do they need?

[Ben Framed]

Bill how I found the right size holes for my tops, was I first ordered Boardman feeders my first year. Of course the tops are already pre-drilled. To make more, I went to Harbor freight finding the proper size bits. I found they were so small that my then Dewalt 18 V Chuck would not tighten down enough to secure these tiny bits. To overcome this, I simply placed the bit in a drill press which accepted the bits just fine and made for easy drilling. (Sorry I can?t remember the size)

Using ball brand tops, I stacked three together thus drilling three holes with every downward plunge. Worked really good, but I did find you need to be in no hurry to start the initial hole in the first top because the bits are so small and can easily break but if you take your time it is no problem. It does not take a lot of time to get the job done. I think I put around 12 holes in each top which was an advantage for the bees.

[beesnweeds]

My mentor suggests that I add more holes but they're drinking a quart a day, how much more do they need?

I use a finish nail and pop 9 holes in a square pattern and use 2 mason jars over the inner cover hole, which is fine for building up nucs. It's getting late in the north to build comb.  I'm done building comb for the year here.  All nucs and hives are fat and happy now.  Keep feeding them 2:1 until your upper deep is near full and they will be ready for winter.  You want volume, so hive top or bucket feeders work great.  If all your comb is drawn, then you still have plenty of time to get them ready for winter.  About one month before your first frost date is when you want to start feeding them heavy if they are light on stores.  This was a very good year for honey, and we may still get a good fall flow.   

[Terri Yaki]

We have a string of days cool enough to apply Formic Pro mite treatment so how should I do it? My 5 frame nuc is the subject in need. I'm thinking I should take one strip, cut it in half and apply as per the instructions. The instructions also say to add a honey super but I don't have one. I could place five frames of comb into a box up top though.

[The15thMember]

The instructions for FormicPro specify you should have at least 6 frames of bees, so anything less is going to be off-label use, which I've never done.  Definitely don't skimp on the extra space during this treatment or you'll have a lot of dead loss, and be sure their entrance is fully open.   If you feel you need to cut a strip in half, be aware that this stuff is highly corrosive, so don't use something metal that you care about as a cutting implement and obviously be sure to wear gloves, probably disposable ones.  I might be inclined to just use a single strip without cutting it, since the paper around the gel is really important to the slow-release, and I'd be concerned that extra air exposure might cause the acid to sublimate too quickly.           

[Terri Yaki]

Hmmmm...what to do? This is a five frame nuc so I don't think I can get a whole strip in there. I can fill a third box with empty comb. Thanks for the tip, I won't take Mrs. Terri's scissors out there and I'll use a box cutter if I cut. My mite count was four, have ye any thoughts on not treating at this time? Eventually, I'll be faced with the same problem.

[Salvo]

Hi Folks, Terri,

I frequently say that a most important characteristic for a beekeeper is curiosity. Never stop LOOKING for something old, something new, something borrowed, something Randy Oliver.....

https://scientificbeekeeping.com/formic-pro-and-queens-in-hot-weather/

Formic acid IN AUGUST is a big, big killer of queens. Line up a queen just in case.


Sal

[beesnweeds]

You could always do an OA dribble (5ml per seam), take a count in a week and go from there.

[The15thMember]

My mite count was four, have ye any thoughts on not treating at this time?

4 out of what?  How many bees did you test?  Or if you don't know the number of bees, what was the approximate volume of bees (1/4 cup, 1/2 cup, 1 cup, etc.)?

[Terri Yaki]

1/3 cup of bees.

[Terri Yaki]

OK, here's my thoughts...4 mites is not all that bad but I don't want to ignore it. This is a five frame double box nuc and I don't want to kill them. I'm thinking 1/2 strip of formic pro and add a third box full of comb. Is there any downside to this?

[The15thMember]

I'm really not sure.  On the one hand, a 2% mite infestation isn't too bad.  On the other, I'm really not sure what the risk of using the FormicPro like this is.  FormicPro is an extremely efficacious product, which makes it great, but its margin of safety for the bees is pretty thin as a result, and you are introducing a lot of unknown variables here.  Worst-case scenario is that it kills the queen and a lot of the bees, but it also might be fine.  It kind of depends on which risk you are personally more comfortable with, the mites or the treatment.   

[Ben Framed]

Formic acid IN AUGUST is a big, big killer of queens. Line up a queen just in case.


Sal

I would reccomend you paying special attention to Salvo on this.


Here is more for you to consider Taken from the following Beemaster Location: .

https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=51861.msg460990#msg460990



Offline TheHoneyPump
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Pics of a Dec. dead out: discussion open??
? Reply #5 on: December 19, 2018, 08:24:52 pm ?
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I did not mention the signs mites nor the lack of food as those were obvious plus you noted two clear issues in the original post.

Mites + virus = dead, what other signs are there in hive or out on ground?
Mites + lack of food = dead (mention of plenty of stores though, so ruled out)
Small cluster from mite or nosema + cold = dead
Nosema = stalled colony, eventually dead
Mite + nosema = super duper dead, kills the fastest

Your mention of this colony never really thriving means they have been sick all along.  That can be a nosema sign, hence my ask.  Did you sample and microscope for nosema at any time?

The signs in the comb and your updated info obviously indicates a high might load.  The treatment method and schedule should be reviewed.  OAV is very effective when applied at the right time and right intervals, the intervals being dictated by the brood status of the hive.  Mid winter, no brood, treat once maybe twice.   Brooding late summer/fall, treat at 4-5 days for 24 days (6 treatments). Imho.

That said, I would still be investigating, particularly wrt nosema, based on the observation that the hive was always lagging.

I also see she is cordovan colours. They are dead now so traits are unknown, just your observation memory.  However, I can say that around here the cordovan are really crap bees. I mean REALLY crap bees. Low hardiness for winter and tender in that they seem to succumb to the slightest ailments.  They sure are pretty bees though.

[Michael Bush]

>I mean REALLY crap bees. Low hardiness for winter and tender in that they seem to succumb to the slightest ailments.  They sure are pretty bees though.

In theory Cordovan is just a color.  In reality they are all from the same line of bees.  They tend to be brood rearing fools with no common sense.  They vary from VERY docile to VERY defensive.  In my experience not a lot of in between. But then some of that may be the F1 effect of them being their own line and getting crossed with anything else brings out defensiveness.  I agree they are beautiful bees but not very successful.

[Terri Yaki]

OK, here's what I did, correct me where I went wrong. I couldn't decide on 1 strip or 1/2 so I went with what I usually do in these situations and split the difference. It's about 2/3 and cuts really easy with a box cutter. The upper brood box is still pretty much full of empty frames except for one with brood on it. I might have moved that up there previously to induce activity in the upper box, I'd have to check my notes. I found one frame full of honey in the bottom on the outside. I moved the honey frame up and the brood frame down and the queen was sighted and on the move. This queen is always easy to find but in a nuc, there aren't as many places to hide.

I think I read that we should not feed during treatment so I pulled off the jar that I gave them yesterday, which is half empty now. I was going to put a box of comb up top but it seems I don't have any comb so I just left the empty box up there in case they want to hide. As I sit here, I'm thinking that even empty frames would give them something to hang out on. That box is above the inner cover right now in case I find that I should keep feeding.

What should I change about what I did?

[The15thMember]

I think that all sounds pretty good.  I'd probably have put frames in the upper box for the reasons you stated, but I think I would just leave it now, since you don't want to release all the formic gas by opening the lid.  Good call on removing their feed, and be sure their entrance is fully open and their bottom board is closed off if it's screened.  I'd say leave them for a week or two and see what happens.