Queen cells in a laying worker hive?!

tjc1 · September 13, 2024, 06:09:38 PM

Hive started May 10 with a couple frames of bees/brood and an established queen. Built up quickly into a strong hive of 3 Medium 10 frame boxes by late July. Though not all frames drawn out in the third box, on August 3 found a frame with numerous queen cells around the edges of a frame, some capped. Never saw a swarm, but on August 13 noted an 8 lb weight loss. Waited till August 30 to check on new queen's situation to find a roaring hive with no brood or eggs visible anywhere, so gave them a frame with eggs and open brood and a TempQueen pheromone stick and ordered a new queen. Put queen in the hive on September 5 - bees did not attack the cage - and released her on the 7th. Went to check on her today and found capped drone brood and cells with multiple eggs in the bottom and middle box - and 3 capped queen cells in the middle box! One on the top edge of a frame, one in the middle of the same frame and one on the bottom edge of the next frame. These were all nice looking queen cells. In the top box, on the donated frame, the brood was all capped and there was one very stunted attempt at a queen cell, capped, on the bottom edge. No sign of the new queen, but I didn't scour the hive looking for her. Anyone have an idea what the heck is going on?

Ben Framed · September 13, 2024, 07:25:54 PM

I can only guess; If they did swarm and raised a new queen, she might have not have yet began laying until 'after' you placed the frame with eggs. If so they may be in the process of a superseder. Are you seeing regular eggs now. Are all the multiple eggs you are seeing on the outside edge of the cells or are some on the bottom of the cells?

Adding just because they may be starting this now (raising an extra queen this time of year does not mean they will swarm even, if you have a new viable queen which has just began laying. . I have found more than one queen in hives in late February, knowing the second queen must have been raised in late Fall. I am thinking it was TheHoneyPump who said this was not so uncommon in late season... As I said I am only guessing..

Phillip

beesnweeds · September 13, 2024, 07:40:12 PM

The first attempt by the colony to make a new queen failed, could be the queen didn't make it back from a mating flight. When you added the frame of eggs, they were already in queen rearing mode. The queen cells should hatch around this weekend if you added the frame of eggs on the 30th. When you released the queen on the 7th they killed her because they had mature queen cells.

Ben Framed · September 13, 2024, 11:37:00 PM

The key would be knowing of fresh eggs are presently being laid in the bottom of the cells, even if there are multiple eggs. A new queen will often lay multiple eggs, but these eggs will be fortune on the bottom of the cells. I learned this from a very seasoned beekeeper who I have much confidence in. Iddee.

If the only eggs you are finding are located on the sides of the cells then beesnweeds has most likely nailed it.

tjc1 · September 13, 2024, 11:46:25 PM

I only saw eggs on the cell bottoms, and most are single eggs, so at first I wasn't thinking there were laying workers. However, all the capped cells that I saw seemed to be drones (except for the worker brood on the donated frame). The mystery to me is where did the fertilized eggs that are now recently capped queen cells come from? Guess I'll have to wait and see at this point but not a great time of year to be going so long without a queen if there isn't one in there at work. Maybe I should take some more brood frames from other hives to boost them up - or is that just going to confuse things and possibly put the queen cells/new queen at risk?

Just thinking - perhaps the swarm cell queen was in the hive, but just not laying yet on Aug 30 when I looked (or just starting to lay and I didn't see it) - but if so, why the roaring hive? If the swarm cell queen hadn't returned from mating, there would not have been any fresh eggs for them to make another round of queen cells, would there?

Ben Framed · September 14, 2024, 12:01:42 AM

QuoteI only saw eggs on the cell bottoms, and most are single eggs, so at first I wasn't thinking there were laying workers. However, all the capped cells that I saw seemed to be drones (except for the worker brood on the donated frame). The mystery to me is where did the fertilized eggs that are now recently capped queen cells come from?

The capped queen cells came from the new queen that took over after the 8 pound swarm left the hive. Congratulations! If the new upcoming queen is successfully mated then you will have a 2 queen hive going into the Winter. Next Spring this hive will have a head start on swarming so you might want to split before that happens next Spring very early...

If your present newly laying queen was marked that would be a great advantage to you in my opinion when the time for that very early split would be made. You would be sure to move the right queen, again in my opinion. So if you can find her, mark her is my advise for now.

tjc1 · September 14, 2024, 12:05:17 AM

That sounds plausible, but why then was the hive roaring on the 30th as if queenless and why have they immediately started raising new queen cells?

Ben Framed · September 14, 2024, 12:17:09 AM

This colony could not raise new queen cells without a fertilized queen. She was probably a late starter at laying. Nor would you presently find eggs laid on the bottom of the cells without a laying queen. Iddee taught us that a laying worker will lay eggs on 'the side' of the cells, not on the bottom for obvious reasons.
Find her, mark her and keep this in mind early next Spring so you can split this hive before it swarms then. While you are at it 'then', you will most likely find the newest unmarked Fall queen. (That is, if she successfully mates this Fall and makes it back). If not you are still ahead of the game with a good young laying queen.. As she is demonstrating she is that now.

PS young queens will often lay multiple eggs in the bottom of a cell. She will figure it out in time.

Phillip

beesnweeds · September 14, 2024, 12:48:07 AM

Quote from: tjc1 on September 14, 2024, 12:05:17 AM
That sounds plausible, but why then was the hive roaring on the 30th as if queenless and why have they immediately started raising new queen cells?

The newly mated queen may have just started to lay or was going to lay soon when you dropped in a TempQueen and a frame of eggs. TempQueens are great for setting up mating nucs but when you place them in established colonies it can cause odd situations like you currently have. You could have had pheromones from both the TempQueen and the new queen at the same time. Plus, you added a new queen. I would check the queen cells this weekend to see if they emerged, have holes cut in the side of them or torn down.

tjc1 · September 14, 2024, 12:17:24 PM

Thanks everyone for all the info - this is starting to come into focus for me with the last posts! Is it this particular kind of late in season situation which creates this two-queens-in-the-hive situation?

tjc1 · September 14, 2024, 01:00:25 PM

In rereading I note Ben Framed's earlier comment referring to TheHoneyPump's observation about the dual queens not being unusual at this time of year.

Michael Bush · September 16, 2024, 06:36:21 AM

https://bushfarms.com/huber.htm#fertileworkersqueencells

"Fertile workers never lay the eggs of common bees; they produce none but those of males. M. Riems had already observed this singular fact; and here all my observations correspond with his. I shall only add to what he says, that fertile workers are not absolutely indifferent in the choice of cells for depositing their eggs. They always prefer large ones; and only use small cells when unable to find those of larger diameter. But they so far correspond with queens whose impregnation has been retarded, that they sometimes lay in royal cells.

"Speaking of females laying male eggs alone, I have already expressed my surprise that bees bestow, on those deposited in royal cells, such care and attention as to feed the worms proceeding from them, and, at the period of transformation, to close them up. But I know not, Sir, why I omitted to observe that, after sealing the royal cells, the workers build them up, and sit on them until the last metamorphosis of the included male."--Francis Huber, New Observations on the Natural History of Bees.

tjc1 · September 17, 2024, 09:32:41 PM

Boy, that sounds even more ominous in the archaic language! There is indeed a queen in the hive as I discovered today, and there are new eggs. Only curious thing is that I found her not in one of the lower two boxes where there was most of the laying activity and young brood, but in the top box which, aside from the donated frame of brood, is all stores. I was a bit surprised to find her there on that frame and only looked after searching the bottom two boxes without success. All of the queen cells were opened. I did mark her - something I've never bothered to do before - in case there is another queen in there somewhere. Got a bit of paint on her upper abdomen and wings in the process, which I hope won't prove deleterious...

tjc1 · October 06, 2024, 05:36:34 PM

Follow up on this curious case - there is a queen in the hive - only one that I can find. She is laying well and all seems OK - but yesterday I found a frame with two queen cells - ! - with large grubs in them! I don't get what is going on with this hive!!!

Ben Framed · October 06, 2024, 09:38:16 PM

tjc1, I?m just curious, are you seeing drones in your hive?

beesnweeds · October 06, 2024, 10:18:39 PM

I know you added a frame of brood but was it open brood? If bees go long enough without open brood the lack of brood pheromone could cause supersedure. The only other guess I have would be your brood comb is older than 5 years. Buildup of chemicals or disease can impact the quality of queens and workers.