Another winter hive reduction question

Kathyp · October 09, 2006, 01:19:57 PM

yesterday i got into the hive. my bottom two boxes below the queen excluder are packed with bees, brood, and honey. the box above the excluder is about half full of bees and full of honey.

we have had a very mild early fall, and a very dry one. i left box 3 on to feed the bees. i am wondering if i should now remove box 3 and force them to use some of the honey in the bottom 2 boxes in order to make room for the extra bees from box 3.

i know they will reduce size on their own, but i am now concerned that we may go from very mild, to suddenly very cold. by now, we should have been below freezing at night, more nights than not. we have not even had a frost.

any thought??

Michael Bush · October 09, 2006, 02:38:15 PM

Two deeps below the excluder? that's probably plenty for Oregon. I'd pull the excluder before it gets cold so the queen doesn't get trapped away from the cluster. You can leave or not leave the extra box on, but I don't think they will need it.

Kathyp · October 09, 2006, 03:15:06 PM

thanks. i had planned on pulling the 3rd box and just leaving them with two, but i thought the population of the hive would have gone down a bit by now. i think i'll just pull the 3rd box and make them figure out how to live in two.

they wouldn't swarm this late??

Michael Bush · October 09, 2006, 04:31:27 PM

There's no rush pulling the box. You can wait until a cold day and see if they aren't clustered down below. Yes, they can swarm anytime if they get crowded enough, but it does take a lot more this time of year.

Kathyp · October 09, 2006, 06:05:01 PM

weather report has us in the 70's this week. not complaining! at this point, the bees don't seem to be slowing down much. guess i'll just keep an eye on them.

Brian D. Bray · October 09, 2006, 11:33:10 PM

For wintering bees I've heard of no place that needs more than the equivalent of 2 deeps. to much space within the hive forces the bees to be more active to generate heat and tthus they use up the stores much faster. I once wintered a hive with 3 deeps and the rest with 2 deeps. I lost the 3 deep while the others faired well.

Kathyp · October 10, 2006, 01:11:49 AM

i didn't plan on leaving #3 on over the winter. just for fall feeding. i thought by now it would be colder and they would have reduced size. instead, they are filling 2 1/2 boxes and still bringing in pollen. there is still a lot of brood in the bottom two boxes and there does not appear to be room for that 1/2 a box of bees in #3.

i don't want to leave #3 on to long and have a cold snap with to much space. on the other hand, i don't want to take it off to early and force so much crowding that they take off on me. especially after finding that i had at least 2 queens! who know how many more are in there.....

Kathyp · October 10, 2006, 09:11:36 PM

last night we had our first good frost. got down to about 34 degrees. as MB suggested, i checked the hive first thing in the AM to see if they had clustered below. they had not. box 3 was still at least 1/2 full of bees.

so....what to do? just wait until enough cold nights reduce brood and kill off some bees?

Brian D. Bray · October 11, 2006, 02:38:13 AM

Another reason for slatted racks. it gives the bees space after removing the extra boxes until they begin clustering good and/or the older bees die off.

Kathyp · October 11, 2006, 11:09:47 AM

that gives me an idea. when i got the apiguard, they told me i needed a spacer box (which they tried to sell me) so i come home and built one. it's about 3 inches deep and gives that much space between the top of the frames and the top.

the days are still pretty warm. if, in the next couple of weeks as the temps drop, i can use that spacer when i pull box 3. that way i have about 6 weeks before it gets really cold and they can have extra space to reduce on their own.

????

Finsky · October 11, 2006, 12:49:37 PM

You should take the 3 th box away and then start feeding for winter. They must have time to cap the syrup.

I use to take all honey away and they winter with mere sugar (+ pollen is essential)

If hive has one box brood before autumn, one box will be enough for winter.

.

Kathyp · October 11, 2006, 12:57:55 PM

box 1 & 2 are honey bound. if i remove box 3 and feed, there is no place for them to put any extra food. there is also no place for all the bees hanging out in box 3. that is my dilemma. in hind sight, i should have put on honey supers rather than the 3rd deep. now i am trying to figure a way to get them back into the bottom two boxes without taking the chance of a late swarm.

unfortunately, i ended up with a huge number of bees from this 3lb package. i had assumed they would reduce size on their own by now.

Finsky · October 11, 2006, 03:26:50 PM

You live here, and you have real winter? http://pix.epodunk.com/locatorMaps/or/OR_15184.gif

Quotei ended up with a huge number of bees from this 3lb package. i had assumed they would reduce size on their own by now.

I I have 4 boxes bees in the middle of summer colony surely goes into one box for winter. If don't, then you may add second box uder the first.

My hives have in July 7-8 box and a month later I push bees into one or two boxes before winter feeding.

.

Quote

now i am trying to figure a way to get them back into the bottom two boxes without taking the chance of a late swarm .

That will never happen...

Quote from: kathypbox 1 & 2 are honey bound. if i remove box 3 and feed, there is no place for them to put any extra food. .

I understood that you had one box full of brood. That area should be full of food before winter.

Kathyp · October 11, 2006, 03:44:06 PM

i am numbering my boxes from the bottom up. at this point, each of the lower boxes are about 2/3 honey and 1/3 brood. the brood area is somewhat smaller now than during the early summer. box 3 on top, was almost full of honey and i left it on for fall feeding.

i not only ended up with a huge number of bees, but a very big area of brood during the summer. seems i also had multiple queens in there.

the bottom two boxes (20 frames) are completely coved with bees. the top box is not quite a full and there is no brood.

i gave them the 3rd deep because the hive just kept getting bigger and bigger. now it doesn't seem to want to get smaller. maybe i just need to wait for colder weather?

Finsky · October 11, 2006, 04:34:01 PM

Wintering bees is quite simple.

Perhaps you hive make new bees and doest not understand that winter is coming.

.

Kathyp · October 11, 2006, 06:57:52 PM

i don't think they do understand. they don't listen to me either. maybe i can bring them in to the computer and you guys can explain it to them :-)

Michael Bush · October 11, 2006, 07:45:51 PM

Maybe there's brood in each box from the multiple queens? Maybe you need to split the hive if there is that much brood and that many queens and that many bees?

Brian D. Bray · October 11, 2006, 11:30:56 PM

Pop out a nuc and recheck in a week to see what's happening.

Finsky · October 11, 2006, 11:48:22 PM

Quote from: Brian D. BrayPop out a nuc and recheck in a week to see what's happening.

Just before winter??? The beginner ??? Brian, would you do that your self ?

Kathyp · October 12, 2006, 12:23:05 AM

ohhhhh....just go pop out a nuc :P finsky is right. i just found out what a nuc was. it would solve the overcrowding problem!

what about this? i remove a couple of frames of honey from box 2. replace with foundation. that should make enough extra room for the bees in box 3. i can feed later if i need to, or add the frames of honey back late.

or, i have about 3 weeks until it gets really cold day and night. i can just wait and see what happens.