Why festoons

[Cindi]

So, I know that bees hang in festoons, for 24 hours, motionless when they are in the process of internally making wax and secreting it to the outside of the wax plates. 

But tell me why is it a necessary thing for the bees to "hang".  Can anyone explain in depth what goes on?  Cannot ever find enough information about this.

1.  When the bees are finished secreting the wax, then what?

2.  Do they leave the festoon and go somewhere, remove the wax with their hind legs, chew it up and then place it where it belongs in their eyes?

3.  Do they get other bees to help remove it, like is necessary with the propolis removal?

4.  When finished, do they go back into the hanging festoon?

I would be very interested to know what actually goes on.  Anyone got an internet site that would be helpful instead of maybe trying to explain it to me?  Awaiting eagerly a mysterious question.  Great day.  Cindi

[beemaster]

Cindi:

I hope we are talking about the same thing when I say Clustering?

Primary reasons are:

1) to protect the queen who is usually buried well within the cluster - since the bees are homeless and have NOT yet found a new home, they have nothing to protect except her.

2) They also have the natural necessity to try to maintain 95F temperatures, even when not raising brood they still cluster to keep these temps stable, thus burning less stored fod in their crop.

3) As you mentioned, some wax building begins - swarms generally leave a hive and then scout bees seek out a new home, often leaving the hive in a state of limbo - not knowing if this temporary branch, mailbox, or whatever may be a longer than hoped hiving spot. It is often days before they may leave this formation to move on to a new home and by clinging on to the other bees in the hive, the weight of the cluster is evenly distributed, using the least space for the most volume of bees.

4) Think too that the colony natural death rate is around 70% or so of the queens egg laying ability - with no comb, no eggs and the colony slowly would shrink if a new home was not readily found.

5) The pheromone of the queen is the most necessary of all survival traits to a bee colony - more prevalent than stinging, which is a last defense mechanism causing great unreast in the swarm cluster. Having a cluster surrounds the bees with a pheromonal bubble of the chemical balance necessary for all workers to do worker stuff. Nothing is worse to watch than a queenless hive slowly die off because workers have literally lost the ability to understand and preform their duties because of the missing pheromone.

6) A cluster gives the bees a FISHEYE view of all possible threats. It's like those wagon-trains forming a circle to protect settlers against Indian attack.

I'm sure there are many more reasons, even if I missed the meaning of your question, I think these answers to clustering may be helpful.

[Jerrymac]

She is talking about inside the hive when they hang together to build a comb. I don't know what all goes on either. Never thought about the machanics of it, just knew they did it.

[Cindi]

John, your comments were very informing, loved every word and thankyou.

Jerrymac was right in what I was referrring to.  I have read in books that bees must hang in festoons inside the hive when they are manufacturing wax within their bodies to be secreted through the wax scales.  This is a process that all bees apparently do when they are manufacturing wax.

I have seen this time and time again when I have had to go into a hive to remove a frame for whatever my reason.  The bees are literally attached together, hanging and when the frame is removed they are pulled apart, but still clinging and looking like strings of bunches of bees. 

This must be an enormous interruption to some kind of event that is occurring within the "festoons" when they are pulled apart.  Why it is called a "festoon" I don't quite get.  When I see this festoon of bees, I think that this is a mistake on my part, to interrupt this and I put the frame right back in, so as not to interrupt this event of nature.

The question I need answered is:
1.  Does this interrupt any manufacturing process within the bees to have their festoon broken up in error?

Hope this further clarifies the queries I have made.  Great day.  Cindi

[Jorn Johanesson]

This will be a very, very wild guess. Mankind are using scaffolding when building in the high. Bees do not have this, so they use their bodies as such. Who has a Cam corder and the time to vitness what is beeing done.

[Trot]

Cindi,
when bees are building/drawing comb it takes great numbers to accomplish this. They festoon/hang from such a frame, cause for making comb they must raise temp to higher degree, 97 or higher, I am not sure just of the top of my head. To achieve this raise in temp, they cluster on a frame and do their thing.
They also produce flakes of wax which are passed up to the bees, molding this into a comb.

Disturbing - pulling out such a comb can certainly throw a monkey wrench into their job and is said that some will take a few days to get back in to a groove. Some even suggest that if disturbed, such comb will be less than perfectly completed...

Regards,
Trot

[Cindi]

This will be a very, very wild guess. Mankind are using scaffolding when building in the high. Bees do not have this, so they use their bodies as such. Who has a Cam corder and the time to vitness what is beeing done.

Jorn, I think that your guess seems like to make alot of sense.  I have a camcorder and if I could somehow see into the hive with this camcorder, I definitely would be more than interested (and actually would have the time) to videotape this to see what is being done and why.  Too bad an observation hive could not be several frames and see-through so that it could be seen what is going on.  I bet other thoughts will come on the forum that might make alot of sense, just like yours.  Great day.  Cindi

[Cindi]

Jorn, I should have read Trot's comments before I sent a post in with response to your comments.

Trot offered an answer that now makes absolute sense too.  Now, Trot, you said that disturbing the bees that some said that it may even cause imperfect comb to be made.  Makes sense too.  that is a bummer.

I don't think that there are any ways around this disturbance now and then though, that is sad.  For example, when one is checking to see if there are any supercedure cells on the face of comb.   I understand that swarm cells can be seen by tipping the hive upwards and looking up from underneath to see the swarm cells, as they are generally on the bottom of the frame.  So what does a beekeeper do?
I imagine the comment would be to leave them alone, but like I said, there are times when one has to enter the hive.  Great day.  Cindi

[Michael Bush]

>1.  When the bees are finished secreting the wax, then what?

They pick up the wax flake and chew it and add it to the comb.

>2.  Do they leave the festoon and go somewhere, remove the wax with their hind legs, chew it up and then place it where it belongs in their eyes?

They don't need to leave the festoon.  The festoon is where the comb is being built.

>3.  Do they get other bees to help remove it, like is necessary with the propolis removal?

No.

>4.  When finished, do they go back into the hanging festoon?

They have to get more nectar first and then it will depend on whether there is a place to PUT the nectar.  If not, they will go back to festooning.

They seem to use the festooning cluster to measure the space between the combs etc.

[Cindi]

>1.  When the bees are finished secreting the wax, then what?
They pick up the wax flake and chew it and add it to the comb.
>2.  Do they leave the festoon and go somewhere, remove the wax with their hind legs, chew it up and then place it where it belongs in their eyes?
They don't need to leave the festoon.  The festoon is where the comb is being built.
>3.  Do they get other bees to help remove it, like is necessary with the propolis removal?
No.
>4.  When finished, do they go back into the hanging festoon?
They have to get more nectar first and then it will depend on whether there is a place to PUT the nectar.  If not, they will go back to festooning.
They seem to use the festooning cluster to measure the space between the combs etc.

Michael, thanks, need further clarification on a comment.  I am the kind who likes to know as many aspects of a subject that my inquiring mind dreams up. Question follows:

>4.  When finished, do they go back into the hanging festoon?
They have to get more nectar first and then it will depend on whether there is a place to PUT the nectar.  If not, they will go back to festooning.

4a)They get more nectar for nourishment to secrete wax? what do you mean it will depend on whether there is a place to put the nectar.  Why would they want to put nectar somewhere?  Is it not used for bee fuel?  Please clarify.  Have you seen any telephoto pictures of these festoons?  I would love to view them if they are around anywhere.  thanks. Great day. Cindi

[Brian D. Bray]

Bees move the nectar around from cell to cell during the curing process.  They will eventually add it to other nectar with the same water content so that the finished honey is unform in water content.  Bees will start putting nectar into comb before the comb is completed during a period of high nectar yields (honey flow) in order to process as much of it as fast as possible.  Just like the queen will lay eggs in cells that are only half finished.  Buy the time the cell is completed,due to the development of the larvae, can mean it is capped at the same time. 
During a heavy flow with a lot of foundation provided you should see quite a number of the partially built comb with nectar already in it.

[Scott Derrick]

Festoon: Just a wild guess but this must bee a combination of the word Infestation and Platoon. I looked up the word festoon here http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/festoon. To me the only one that seems to fit is the first one. Anyone else have a definition?

Scott

[Cindi]

Brian, nice clarification, appreciated, thanks, have a great day. Cindi

[Michael Bush]

>4a)They get more nectar for nourishment to secrete wax?

No, they get more nectar because it's their job.  They secrete wax because there is no where to store it.  If there were somewhere to store it they would store it and go back to receive more nectar from the foragers and store that.

>what do you mean it will depend on whether there is a place to put the nectar.

If there is somehwere to store it, that is what they do.

> Why would they want to put nectar somewhere?

It is their job.

>  Is it not used for bee fuel?

No, if they were using it for food they would not be producing wax.  When the nectar stays in their stomach, they make wax.  When they burn the nectar, they don't make wax.  If they have nectar in their stomach that they don't need for food, they look for a place to store it.

> Please clarify.  Have you seen any telephoto pictures of these festoons?

I've watched many of them for hours in my observation hives.  But what is happening is no obvious, especially from a still picture.  You have to watch to see them make wax and build comb.

[Cindi]

Michael, thank you for your response, and thanks everyone for their part of information too.  This is what makes the forum a most fantastic learning tool.  All the information that is provided by individuals that are so willing to spend ALOT of time putting in their 2+ cents in, it must be proclaimed that it is appreciated and I am very grateful.

These words of wisdom brought to the forum by the members allow the inquiring mind to make informed decisions on subjects.  There is so much information to combine, summarize and other things to help  the desire of understanding become a reality.  I just wanted to express my deep felt appreciation to all who contribute so much.  Great day. Cindi

[Understudy]

Now a thread like this is where I can learn something. Great thread.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

PS. I am going kidnap MB and hook his brain up to my computer network so I can access it at anytime. I am sure his wife won't mind. :D

[Jorn Johanesson]

Stage 1a 1b in bee’s adult life: Cleaning and Feeding Job, developing ability to produce queen feed. So duty is nurse bee

Stage 2. Loosing the ability to produce queen food, but develop the ability to produce wax. So duty is building bee

Stage 3. Loosing the ability to produce wax, but develop the ability to produce venoms. So duty is guard bee

Stage 4. Field bee, the shortest period in the bee’s life (one week) All together a lifespan of 5 weeks. before some are jumping on this, summer bees do not live long because of they are worn out. Have worked so hard that wings no longer can bring them home.

Wax producing bees are not collecting honey from outside the hive, but get it from the house bees. Field bees are just delivering the honey to the house bees then goes for another collection. Sorry MB I am not buying your explanation in its entirety.

[Dick Allen]

Jorn Johanesson's remarks on the scaffolding makes sense. I've read some speculation somewhere on one of these internet groups that when bees are in the festoon building comb that they are arranging themselves to measure the size of the comb cells as it is being built. Now, remember I'm passing along hearsay that came from speculation.  :-D It seems to make sense to me though, which may explain why "regular sized" bees being placed onto small cell foundation rarely draw the foundation correctly until they've been reared in it themselves.

[Cindi]

Stage 1a 1b in bee’s adult life: Cleaning and Feeding Job, developing ability to produce queen feed. So duty is nurse bee

Stage 2. Loosing the ability to produce queen food, but develop the ability to produce wax. So duty is building bee

Stage 3. Loosing the ability to produce wax, but develop the ability to produce venoms. So duty is guard bee

Stage 4. Field bee, the shortest period in the bee’s life (one week) All together a lifespan of 5 weeks. before some are jumping on this, summer bees do not live long because of they are worn out. Have worked so hard that wings no longer can bring them home.

Wax producing bees are not collecting honey from outside the hive, but get it from the house bees. Field bees are just delivering the honey to the house bees then goes for another collection. Sorry MB I am not buying your explanation in its entirety.

Jorn, defintiely the way it goes, BUT...there is also one little thing.  Most of the time, even when a bee is older, they can go back and assume any duty that the colony is in need of, UNLESS, their glands are atropied from overuse?  This is what I "learned" through reading, if this is incorrect, please correct me, so that I do not go on believing in something that I read that is not scientific fact.  Facts are important to me.

Ya, this thing about the wings being worn out from flying in the older bee.  That is where I had deep confusion with the symptoms of the varroa destructor.  I saw bees crawling around on the ground with frayed wings. If I were more experienced, I probably would have noticed that these bees were "young" bees, not the older foragers, that probably were quite hairless as well, due to the hairs being rubbed off from moving among the colony.

My understanding that baby bees (ones that have newly emerged), like the ones that are decimated by the varroa mite crawling around on the ground, are hairy and soft looking.  I did not look at the pooor bees crawling around closely enough.  I am sure that I would have seen that they were young babies, probably just born and trying to live their lives.

I saw something so sad last year on the bottomboard of one of the colonies, to think back, it seriously almost makes me still want to cry.  I saw several like this actually throughout the summer.  I killed them, put them out of their misery.  I don't even really want to talk about it, it is so disgusting, but I really think that new beekeepers really need to know all the signs of bad things going on in their hives....I carry on....

I always love to stand beside the colonies in the summertime.  I love to look at the bees, and I find that if I stand beside the hives and look down on them, I am not annoying them, nor am I in their flight path.  I am of no consequence to them whatsoever and I am ignored, like I did not even exist.  Except for the odd curious one that comes to see what I am doing and then buzzes off to better and more interesting things.  I sometimes have my morning coffee standing above them watching their wild and crazy moves.  There is nothing more beautiful than to have the gift of watching the honeybees and their tiny little goings on in their lives.

I can barely say this, it brings sadness.  I saw some bees without wings, infront of their entrance on the bottomboard, going through the motions of fanning, releasing the scent of their Nasonov gland.  I honestly believe that they thought they were fanning, their little bums were pointed upwards, with their heads facing down.  I guess the instinct is so strong, that even though they did not have wings, they still fanned.  They probably believed in themselves and thought that they were doing a great job.  I guess they were, perhaps somehow some of the scent was being released in one way or another, I don't know.  I knew that they had a doomed life, so I would take them away, one by one, as I saw them and sent them off to a better place, where no varroa could ever bother them again.  Have an awesome and great day, Cindi

[Michael Bush]

>Wax producing bees are not collecting honey from outside the hive, but get it from the house bees.

Exactly.

>Field bees are just delivering the honey to the house bees then goes for another collection.

Exactly.

> Sorry MB I am not buying your explanation in its entirety.

What part?  Those house bees, when they have no where to store the nectar (which they have received from the foragers), festoon and build wax.

I like your scaffold analogy, and I think that is correct.  I think they are measuring things with their bodies and providing a platform to work from.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbasics.htm