Newbie, top-bar and super questions

[Markalbob]

Hi,

I'm a newbie, thinking about starting a hive or two this spring.  I'm thinking of going top-bar because cost will be a major factor, and honestly honey yield will only be a semi-concern--I want some for making mead, but I use 15 lbs or less to make 5 gallons of mead--30 lbs of honey would be plenty for mead, beer, and "normal" consumption for a year anyway.

I've been reading, it sounds as though top-bar hives are easier to "work" (A major plus since I am not experienced with bees to begin with), much easier and cheaper to construct, their con is requiring lots of maintenence to extract the honey and lower yield.  So, as I said, yield is nice, but not a major concern.  Not having bees go ballistic while I'm learning, ease of care, and cost ARE major concerns.

I was thinking of something along this line:  A 30-bar, Tanz.-style hive (no slope in sides) to give bees "maximum" area inside hive, and nothing else for the first year to allow them to build up their own honey stores and numbers.....the hope again being that the additional space in a Tanz-style tbh would mean significantly more honey capacity.  I plan on feeding if/as needed, but the less they need to depend on my sorry, inexperienced behind, the better off the bees are.  The following year, I was thinking of periodically "clearing" some of the bars in the hive, but for actual honey harvest for myself, setting 2 supers on the top.  There would be "half-sized", holding say 12-14 frames each and I'd pull a couple top bars to allow access to the supers.  I'd also plug the regular entrance and have openings in the tops of the supers, forcing them through the supers.

My questions are:

1.  Does this seem reasonable and practical as an approach?  If not, why?  (waits for Finsky) :-D

2.  For the hive itself, and the supers, if I built a Tanzanian style tbh, is there any reason NOT to just size it so it can accept Langstroth frames or similar, with a "bar" on the top, as this would add to the support of the comb?  It would also make adding nuc colonies, if I decided to, much easier.....

3.  Alternatively, for the Super, rather than copying a langstroth, is there any advantage or disadvantage to simply making "top-bar Supers" as well, and working/harvesting them as with a typical top-bar?

If you're wondering what I'm on (I realize my question may well be foolish, I'm just too new at this to know), my rationale was a BIG tbh would mean less stress on the bees from me pulling from their very finite resources, whereas with a "supered" hive, they had the entire bottom for their own use and hopefully it would be plenty to hold them reasonably safely over the winter.  Supers would also provide a "bulk reservoir" so I could harvest 2-4 times in a season and not have to worry on a weekly basis--I'm right in the 'burbs and I'd have to take a car trip every time I went to check on the hives......tbh hives are suppposed to require more maintenence than Langstroths, but be easier to make and to work--I was hoping my approach would be a fair way to compromise and get the best of both worlds for someone who just wants "some" honey, low maintenence, and inexpensive startup.......all thought are welcome.

Thanks,
Mark

[Scadsobees]

I've not had any TBH's, although I would like to try it some time if I ever get the time to make one...

If you are worried about temperament...that is more determined by the bees you have, not what they live in.  Whereas TBH bees may be a little more tolerant, they won't be the first time you have to seperate a comb attached to the side or an unsupported or weak brood comb collapses into the hive.  I don't want to talk you out of it, but I also don't want you to abandon beekeeping in frustration when comb after comb collapses on a hot summer day. (not common, and with some common sense procedures it is mostly avoidable and can happen with frames too).  I think the difficulties with comb management is probably one of the biggest reasons it is recommended for experience beeks.

You can put a super on a TBH, but you'd want to be sure you use a queen excluder.  If you have a decent size yard and a place to shelter a hive or two you can keep them in the 'burbs (excluding any laws that may apply).  I'm there and have 6 hives.

And 30 lbs is only about 2.5 gallons and you may find out that there is one more batch of mead you wanted to try but no more honey and all of your freinds are hounding you for one more bottle of that really great honey you make!!!  Welcome to the obsession!!!

[Markalbob]

well, I've already been considering frames for the top-bars as a possibility as well.  As far as the "one more batch of mead", I don't drink that much, and yes, my wine and beer hobby has already taken up a good chunk of the basement.  5 gallons of mead uses about 15 lbs or less of honey, and makes 25 bottles.  Put another way, though, it's 25 bottles sitting around per 5-gallon batch, and mead needs a year to age typically, so making a half-dozen recipes would be far more time and bottles than I have anyway, as well as assuring a thorough a$$-kicking from my wife next time she tried to find something of hers in the basement..... :-\

Seriously, I decided more than 2 5-gallon batches a year was a bad idea in part because I also like wine and beer.  I average about 2-3 drinks a week.  Unless I gave almost everything away, this means I can only make a very finite amount of anything.

Besides, if I decide envenomation really isn't worth saving the $30/gallon after a summer or 2, I'm not invested quite so much.....I'm hoping to start on a shoestring in case I decide it's not for me, but not so far down the shoestring that i can't do anything significant, either.....

[Finsky]

If not, why?  (waits for Finsky) :-D

I will not say nothing.  Top bar hives and frames without foundations are just toys. They are more expencive than "normal" way. That is way normal beekeepers does not use those methods.

[Markalbob]

Finsky,

I'll give you that they are likely more expensive on a "per lb honey produced" basis.  On a "startup cost to get a single hive or 2 running as a pilot to see if it's a hobby to continue with" I don't see how they could be.  If you maintain they are more expensive in the second manner as well, educate me--I'm happy to listen.  That's why I'm here.

[Finsky]

Finsky,

I'll give you that they are likely more expensive on a "per lb honey produced" basis. 

I have made this calculation some times.

One Langtroth hive has 4 lbs wax.

One wax lbs needs 8 lbs honey + pollen.  4 lbs WAX needs about 30 lbs honey.

One 10 frame box has 2 lbs foundations.  When you use foundations  2 lbs, you save 15 lbs honey.

http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/fdnvsdrawn.htm


SECOND

When bees are allowed to build their own combs they like to build much drone combs.
http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/abs/2002/01/Seeley/Seeley.html

This study examined the impact on a colony's honey production of providing it with a natural amount (20%) of drone comb. Over 3 summers, for the period mid May to late August, I measured the weight gains of 10 colonies, 5 with drone comb and 5 without it. Colonies with drone comb gained only 25.2  16.0 kg whereas those without drone comb gained 48.8  14.8 kg.

SUMMARY

The claim that to draw combs without foundations is sheap, that is no true.
Recycling wax via foundations is very big saving in beekeeping.

If some does not care about honey yield, I am a wrong person to give advices in beekeeping. This kind of beekeeping has no challnece and then I prefer to raise butterflyes from larvae.

Beekeeping is very expencive hobby and I am not going to loose honey yield.

ONE REASON

Beekeeping as my hobby ties whole family to spend free time in special way and I say that I must do that and that for bees.

I byed my first own apartment with honey money and it is not small thing at all.

.

[Markalbob]

so how does one avoid drone comb in a Langstroth?

[Finsky]

Bees raise drones here and there even if they has only worker foundations.

But you may concentrate drone raising in limited areas and you may use them to catch mites.

Here is one resolution. Medium foundation in Langtsroth frame. It gives 1/3 gap for drone cells. Then you cut pupae away and bees make new drone combs.

Naturally they like to build 20% which is in 10-15 brood frames 2-3 whole drone frames
Mites go into open larva cells.

If you leave frames away from super, big hive may build whole box full of drones. It is very usual.

[Markalbob]

forgive my ignorance, but:

1.  Are you then proposing you basically limit drone cells by simply removing them?

2.  If so, couldn't that be done in any hive you had access to, including tbh as well?

[Finsky]

forgive my ignorance, but:

1.  Are you then proposing you basically limit drone cells by simply removing them?

I give to them limited free area ( gaps) in foundations.  where bees like to draw drone cells.  In early summer bees are eager  to build drone cells where ever it is possble.

[Michael Bush]

>1.  Does this seem reasonable and practical as an approach?  If not, why?

My longest TBHs are 33 bars.  That works well.  30 should be fine.  How wide?  How deep?

>2.  For the hive itself, and the supers, if I built a Tanzanian style tbh, is there any reason NOT to just size it so it can accept Langstroth frames or similar, with a "bar" on the top, as this would add to the support of the comb?

No reason at all except the work of building the frames.  My TTBH are Langstroth dimensions and I can mix in frames if I want:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm

> It would also make adding nuc colonies, if I decided to, much easier.....

Much.

>3.  Alternatively, for the Super, rather than copying a langstroth, is there any advantage or disadvantage to simply making "top-bar Supers" as well, and working/harvesting them as with a typical top-bar?

Since top bars are solid, it would not have good communication for the extra boxes on top.  I do super mine with standard Langstroth supers and frames when I don't have time to harvest them.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeshorizontalhives.htm

As far as drones, Dr. Collison has done research and the end results were that the bees will raise the same number of drones no matter how much you try to restrict the amount of drone comb they have.  Once the drone population reaches the threshold for the time of year they will stop trying to rear drones.  The research I've seen also shows that they will produce less honey if you try to restrict the number of drones.  The theory is that the bees spend a lot of energy or lose moral trying to get up to that threshold of drones that satisfies them.

As far as the cost of producing wax:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesharvest.htm

[Markalbob]

>3.  Alternatively, for the Super, rather than copying a langstroth, is there any advantage or disadvantage to simply making "top-bar Supers" as well, and working/harvesting them as with a typical top-bar?

Since top bars are solid, it would not have good communication for the extra boxes on top.  I do super mine with standard Langstroth supers and frames when I don't have time to harvest them.

Mike,

In the above, I had planned on taking out 2 bars when it was supered, and supering by placing the super over the "slat", or using a few top-bars with notches in them.  Bee access would also be altered when supers were added to only allowing then in or out of the hive via openings in the super box as I would cover/plug the "normal" entrance--I believe this will allow the bees to access the supers, correct?  Or is there something I'm missing?

[Michael Bush]

The bees will have much better communication from the gaps in standard frames than from a few notches.  They are much more likely to move up into the next box with better communication.  If you leave out bars, the bees will NOT leave out combs.  They will simply attached them to the edges of the bar on each side of that one.  When they are not building combs, you can get by with making a 1/4" gap between a couple of bars to get some communication, such as getting them to work a pollen patty that is right over the cluster in the late winter.  But I would not expect a lot of good communication up into the next box.  The system I'm employing is a top entrance so ALL the field bees HAVE to go THROUGH the supers to get to the hive.  This insures they will not totally ignore it.

[Apis629]

Your whole idea makes sense to me but, I'd suggest against a Tanzanian hive.  Not because it will have fewer attachements but, because clearance for the combs as you're lifting them will become an issue.  One brush or bump with a Tanz. comb could cause it to collapse.  The Kenyan style avoids that problem by the shape allowing for more clearance as the comb is lifted, reducing the risk of it bumping other combs or the walls.  I had a KTBH (killed by racoons in Dec.) and, it maintained the highest population of any of my hives.  It even put away the equivelent of 1 1/2 deeps worth of honey in its first year.  Never had a single comb collapse either.  Depending on how you work them, I'm sure either will work fine for what you want to do but, if you wish to use langstroth frames in the hive body, the Tanzanian may be your best option. 

If you're hoping to "start on a shoestring" it may be best to skip the langstroth frames and super.  Just let them expand and store honey horrezontally.  Just incase you're wondering, my KTBH was 22 inches wide at the top, 8 inches wide at the bottom, and about 4 feet long.  It had 32 bars (27 of which were drawn in the first year).

[Michael Bush]

>I'd suggest against a Tanzanian hive.  Not because it will have fewer attachements but, because clearance for the combs as you're lifting them will become an issue.

With medium depth combs it has not been an issue.  With a deep box it might be.  My TTBH are made from a one by eight so the depth of the box (counting the space at the bottom that is usually provided by a bottom board) is 7 1/4".

[Markalbob]

The bees will have much better communication from the gaps in standard frames than from a few notches.  They are much more likely to move up into the next box with better communication.  If you leave out bars, the bees will NOT leave out combs.  They will simply attached them to the edges of the bar on each side of that one.  When they are not building combs, you can get by with making a 1/4" gap between a couple of bars to get some communication, such as getting them to work a pollen patty that is right over the cluster in the late winter.  But I would not expect a lot of good communication up into the next box.  The system I'm employing is a top entrance so ALL the field bees HAVE to go THROUGH the supers to get to the hive.  This insures they will not totally ignore it.

Mike,

I had planned on leaving out a bar, placing the super directly above with the only entrance/exit then being the super......maybe I"m issing something, as I was under the impression I was basically re-creating your Ttbh with the possible addition of frames to help w/ honey attachment........isn't that basically how you created the openings whne you supered??  And how did you have better "communication" for your bees then?