Spring build up: BOOM then BUST

romduck · April 24, 2007, 10:35:05 AM

Only one of my hives made it thorugh this Connecticut Winter but when I checked and fed it in the beginning of April it was going very well.

Unfortunately I have been away for a few weeks then followed by the big Nor'Easter keeping me out of the hive for another check and hive body reversal. Yesterday (4/24/07) when I was able to get to it I found it filed with honey and pollen in the upper deep. The only other items in the upper deep were about 12 total uncapped queen cells (uh-oh) and a few capped drone brood. The bottom deep was virtually empty. No eggs. No larav. No visible queen.

Any thoughts on what happened?

a) Swarm?
b) Supercedure?

Any thoughts on what to do next?

a) Wait for the new queen to get going?
b) Set out a swarm trap?
c) Order a new queen?

KONASDAD · April 24, 2007, 10:50:51 AM

If you still have bees, order queen or let them raise there own. If your hive is almost empty of everything but stores, you may be victim of CCD as oppossed to swarming.

romduck · April 24, 2007, 11:29:03 AM

I have to admit that it is pretty strange. The queen cells are open so I think that I'll give it another week to see if there's a new queen in there starting to lay.

It may be a good idea for me to order a new queen anyway since I have 3 packages coming this Saturday. Queen insurance in case any of them don't take?

Scadsobees · April 24, 2007, 12:00:35 PM

Do the queen cells tend to be along the bottom of the frames? or on the face of the frames? Bottom are more swarm oriented, versus face is more supercedure.

How many bees are there? If there are a lot, then they are probably getting ready to swarm really soon...the queen slims down, stops laying just before they leave. You might be able to do a split yet.

If there are about 1/2 as many bees, then you are too late....they are gone.

If there only a few bees, then you have a disease problem (CCD?).

I also think that prolonged confinement during the buildup stage can induce early swarming.

If there are a lot of bees and swarm queen cells, I'd find that queen (if possible) and split asap. If there aren't as many bees with queen cells, I'd let them be, they will raise their own.

Rick

LocustHoney · April 24, 2007, 01:10:02 PM

How many days was it since you looked into the hive??? Wouldn't a swarm take atleast 20 days??? 10 to get the egg into a cell and capped. Then 10 to hatch. You did say a couple of weeks. I would also be interested in knowing if the cells were swarm or supercedure. Most people in my area would introduce a newly bought queen at this stage and so would I. :-D Good luck.

kgbenson · April 24, 2007, 01:28:04 PM

Quote from: LocustHoney on April 24, 2007, 01:10:02 PMWouldn't a swarm take atleast 20 days???

Nope - typically they leave when the first cells are capped. But they can leave earlier than that.

Quote10 to get the egg into a cell and capped.

They cap at about 8 days typically, and then they swarm.

QuoteThen 10 to hatch

.

Nope - total developemnt time is 16 days.

QuoteYou did say a couple of weeks.

Plenty of time for them to get things going.

http://members.aol.com/queenb95/queenrear.html
http://www.kentbee.com/files/queenraising.pdf
http://www.gobeekeeping.com/getting_started_with_queen_reari.htm
http://www.basingstoke-beekeepers.org.uk/queen-rearing.html
http://www.queenbeesforsale.com/RaisingQueensCalendar.php

My guess is they swarmed. I would see what kind fo queen they produce. If you don't like her, requeen.

Keith

romduck · April 24, 2007, 02:04:25 PM

There are quite a few bees left.

Mostly supercedure cells, but some on the bottom of the frames too.

I would have thought that the new queen would have started up laying again if they had swarmed but it consensus appears that this may not be so.

Any other Spring I probably would have caught this earlier but I've been away darn it!

They're probably long gone but I'll probably throw a swarm lure up anyhoo.

shakerbeeman · April 24, 2007, 02:12:00 PM

Hi romduck,

Nice to see another Ct person here. I'm in the northwest corner myself and just starting out. Where are you?

TwT · April 24, 2007, 02:54:57 PM

Quote from: rudduck on April 24, 2007, 11:29:03 AM
I have to admit that it is pretty strange. The queen cells are open so I think that I'll give it another week to see if there's a new queen in there starting to lay.

It may be a good idea for me to order a new queen anyway since I have 3 packages coming this Saturday. Queen insurance in case any of them don't take?

give her a few weeks and if you order a queen now you might be in for a sorry attempt, new queens are hard to find and if you don't see brood in a week then order a queen you will be posting about the bee's balling and killing her, it took one of my queens last year 3 weeks to get rolling laying brood, when in doubt, use a test frame of eggs and young larva to see if they have a queen if you can get one from another hive, put it in and wait a few days and see if they are making queen cells, if not odds are you got a queen if they do make Q-cells they will build some then you can tear those out and put in a queen you ordered, but if you order a queen make sure you have a extra hive or nuc to put her in just incase that hive has a queen already.....

TwT · April 24, 2007, 03:07:35 PM

Quote from: romduck on April 24, 2007, 02:04:25 PM
There are quite a few bees left.

I would have thought that the new queen would have started up laying again if they had swarmed but it consensus appears that this may not be so.

it can take a queen 2 weeks to do mating flights depending on weather and her, then could take a week or 2 before she fills frames with eggs so its hard to tell , but when in doubt a test frame from another hive will tell you,

this might sound stupid to some but learn how to ask bee's questions
test frames (eggs and young larva) = any time you wonder if your bee's are queenless put a test frame in and they will answer you. You just need to ask them and a test frame will tell you on what is happening with the queen, weel that's the way 90% of the time.
just my 2 pennies worth!!!

thegolfpsycho · April 24, 2007, 03:49:56 PM

Seems like he's confused about the order of things. The old queen stops laying and slims down well in advance of the actual swarm. Then they leave usually before any of the new queens emerge. Going in and destroying queen cells after they have already swarmed can have disasterous results, because there are no viable eggs that the bees can raise a queen from. OOPS... gotta run. Just got a swarm call. Sounds like a biggun

Only about 5 lbs of bees, but they were 3 feet off the ground. My kind of swarm capture. I saw the queen and grabbed her, shoved her in with a queen includer. Dericks beeyard just doubled in size.

romduck · April 25, 2007, 08:32:56 AM

Thanks for all of the info. In this case I did understand the order, but not the time frame. I had not realized that the hive might be "eggless" for so long.

Unfortunately this is my only remaining hive right now so I cannot test with eggs and brood. I have 3 packages coming in two days so hopefully I'll have the tools to straighten things out in a few weeks.

I prefer a wait and observe method anyway. I enjoy seeing what the bees do in any given situation and learning from that, even if it means missing out on more honey this year.