New Hive Question about Collapsing Foundation

Jason1324 · May 21, 2007, 07:11:19 PM

Hi everyone. I just installed 2 new hives a couple days ago, and opened the first (I'll get to the second tomorrow) to make sure the queen was introduced to the colony and to give the second terramycin treatment. When I opened the hive, I saw that the beeswax foundation for a bunch of the frames had buckled and fallen out of the frames (I'm guessing from the heat). Needless to say this shocked me. The bees seemed to be working with it though, building new comb and such. However, it's a mess, and I can't remove any of the frames to inspect.

How big of a problem is this? There really doesn't seem to be much I can do here, short of something major which I'm clearly not experienced enough to do (these are my first hives). Will the bees be all right? This is the bottom deep body chamber, so I can be more careful about the foundation for the top chamber, thus minimizing the damage. Is this something I should be worried about?

Thanks a lot for your time and help.

buzzbee · May 21, 2007, 07:37:53 PM

Were these pure wax foundation,with wire or pins? You may need to shim the outer cover up a little to remove the heat and allow more ventilation.

doak · May 21, 2007, 07:45:55 PM

When using beeswax foundation, make sure you use the frames with the cleet at the top. You can use split or grooved bottom. But if you use split bottom make sure you press in from the side when you fasten the top cleet/wedge in and nail it. If you use grooved bottom the foundation will sag but will not fall through.
Also use grimp wire for deep.

As for the mess you have right now, I would get in there and try to make some changes, if nothing else, take out one frame at the side and remove the collapsed foundation and if there is any comb started at the top leave it. just let them build their own foundation. continue through to the other side.
You may want to leave one or two frames out till you finish. then put them back on the other side.
If you wait to correct it later you will have a"BIGGER" mess than you have now.

I for myself believe the biggest mistake is to not correct a mistake and or mishap as soon as possible. Others may think different.
doak

Kathyp · May 21, 2007, 07:51:00 PM

i'm with doak. you just put them in. now is the time to fix it. i use wax and have not had this problem. my guess is that you didn't quite get it secured the way it should be. that's ok. it takes a little practice. nothing lost but a little time and foundation.

Jerrymac · May 21, 2007, 08:00:20 PM

I envision the foundation accordioned on you. You might can take a long knife with you to poke between the frames and cut the wax so you can pull out the first frame. From there you might be able to work out the second frame. Then it will get easier when you can reach in and work with your hands. But yes you need to straighten out any messes while they are still small. The bees will only build the comb down and attach it to what you have now. I left a piece of comb laying on the bottom of my frames for the bees to clean out. Nope. They filled the thing with honey. What a mess.

Michael Bush · May 21, 2007, 11:12:35 PM

Crooked comb leads to more crooked comb. I would do a cut out and tie all the crooked brood comb (bent straight) into frames and scrap the crooked honey comb.

Jason1324 · May 22, 2007, 05:30:00 AM

Thanks for the advice. I need to check my other hive today and introduce the queen and do the other terramycin treatment. If the foundation is messed up there too then obviously I'll have to do some work on that hive as well. Then I'll go back and do some work on the frames and get it as fixed as I can.

Another question, is it going to be a problem that I'm working in the hive so much this early? I had read that if you open the hive too much after putting the queen in the bees might kill her or leave alltogether. Is this something I need to worry about? Thanks.

Michael Bush · May 22, 2007, 07:38:14 AM

>Another question, is it going to be a problem that I'm working in the hive so much this early?

You never know.

> I had read that if you open the hive too much after putting the queen in the bees might kill her or leave alltogether.

Doubtful they will kill her (although not impossible).

They seldom do this, but it has happened.

> Is this something I need to worry about?

I wouldn't. If you do worry about it, put an excluder on the bottom board so the queen can't leave. They won't leave without her.

Jason1324 · May 24, 2007, 12:40:24 PM

Well, I've gone into both hives and removed all the messed up foundation and the wooden frames. Today, I'm going to the local supply shop and picking up pre-assembled frames with supported beeswax foundation installed. I shouldn't have the problem of the foundation falling out. I figure I might have to scrape a little comb off the top and sides of the hive, but not much. They'll only have a max of 5 days worth of comb building time. There are 3 frames left in each hive now, the frames they seemed to have started building on or were in good enough shape to leave in. Hopefully, the worst is over.

Ross · May 24, 2007, 03:07:13 PM

5 days will give them enough time to draw the box full of burr comb if there is a flow on.

Jason1324 · May 27, 2007, 06:55:18 AM

Since my last post I've gone into one of my hives and put in new frames. They did not draw any comb onto any of the box, except for a small piece on the roof. I figure the other hive will be about the same when I take care of it later today.

The only catch was I have 9 frames in the hive body instead of 10. This is because of the way they drew down comb on one of the frames, it looks like they drew it down on both sides of the frame, which had lost its foundation. I let them keep this, and just put more room between it and the adjacent frames.

Brian D. Bray · May 28, 2007, 12:16:41 AM

So how are you going to check any problems on the inside of the frame with the double comb? This too needs to be fixed. I would wait until you add a super and move that frame up and to one side, then remove it and cut out the comb and put in new foundation. Leaving frames like that in the hive are not a problem for the bees but they are for the beekeeper AND THE STATE BEE INSPECTOR. It is best to correct problems as they occur. Problems allowed to fester come back to bite you later.

doak · May 28, 2007, 12:25:46 AM

And believe me, they can bite "BIG".
doak