to much brood and not enough honey

annette · May 24, 2007, 02:17:03 PM

Just checked on my new hive split. They are overflowing with bees, making so much brood in a nice tight pattern, but hardly any honey. This queen has moved up to the third super already and is filling it with brood. The two bottom supers are also filled with brood. I was surprised to see this super filled with brood as we have a flow on now (I believe) and I thought the bees would have filled this super with honey.

There is some honey on the outer frames, but hardly anything.

I just this morning placed a queen excluder and another honey super on top in the hopes they will fill this with honey.

Is this normal???

I guess the queen will eventually go back down to the bottom super and continue to work down there.

Just need to know that everything is fine. I do not want any more swarms this year.

Thank you
Annette

Ross · May 24, 2007, 03:06:02 PM

You might not have a good number of nectar collectors yet. These are apparently all young bees. Give it another week or so for more of them to mature. In the meantime, go queen go. You want a strong workforce. When the nectar comes in the bees will cap her off and force her back down.

Kirk-o · May 24, 2007, 06:50:48 PM

Get your bottles ready honey is on the way
kirko

Brian D. Bray · May 24, 2007, 11:56:40 PM

Don't worry about the queen using a 3rd super for brood. Look on the bright side more brood means more brood which means more bees to forage which results in more honey. I always let the queen have as much space as she wants as a brood chamber because the stronger the hive the bigger the harvest.

annette · May 25, 2007, 12:03:32 AM

Now I am excited .

I checked on them this evening. They went up past the queen excluder into the new honey super I placed on top this morning. Guess they will start to make honey now.

Thank you all for the help, which I so much appreciate.

Annette from hot, hot, Placerville, California

Shizzell · May 25, 2007, 01:41:10 PM

You might want to take off that queen excluder. I find that using a queen excluder tends to make the hive feel pressured, which results in a hive swarming. I would atleast think about it.

Jake

annette · May 25, 2007, 02:05:20 PM

Is this true for queen excluders in general??? Or just because you think this queen would want even more space.

At what point do I use the queen excluder??

Annette

Shizzell · May 25, 2007, 02:17:17 PM

I know that giving the queen more room costs a more because you have to invest in more supers and boxes, etc. But its definately worth letting your queen rear more brood.

indypartridge · May 25, 2007, 03:53:17 PM

Boy that sounds like my hive that swarmed. I thought I had done everything "by the book" as far as swarm prevention, but off they went. When I checked after hearing them fly off into the woods, there was frame after frame of brood, a little pollen and very, very little uncapped honey. I'm fairly sure there was an after-swarm as well: my kids reported seeing a swarm fly over the pasture a couple days later, and the hive population was definitely down when I checked. Hope you have better luck!

Kathyp · May 25, 2007, 04:16:45 PM

annette, some people don't use excluders at all. kind of depends on your situation. i had a hive go 3 deep last year and then give me two supers of honey. i used an excluder. i knew i didn't have a long season and wanted the honey brood free. if you don't care about working around brood, or letting it hatch out before taking your honey, you don't need to use one.

the queen will go back in lay in used cells as the brood hatches out. you'll have to watch to make sure that they make enough honey at the end of the year to carry them through the winter. i had to get mine back down to two deeps and then feed last year to make sure they had enough to carry them through. i also froze the frames of honey from the 3rd box and fed it back to them toward the end of the winter.

i think it all comes down to keeping an eye on them so you know how much room they have....and when it's all said and done...some hives just swarm no matter what.

doak · May 25, 2007, 04:44:14 PM

Most often when I use an excluder is when the queen keeps on going up when it is apparent there is enough room with out doing so.
Some Queens tend to want to keep going and some don't.
Out of 7 colonies right now I have 4 excluders on and all seem to be doing their thing.
It is said 3 medium supers equal 2 deeps, but if they are really strong and seam to be crowded a 4th super may not do any harm. If they don't use it for brood the much better. JMO
doak

annette · May 25, 2007, 05:21:20 PM

Thank you all for the replies.

I have a full deep for the bottom super, and medium supers for the other 2. So these 3 supers make up the brood chamber right now. I feel the queen has enough room and I did notice room in the very bottom super as some bees have hatched out, so she can go back down if she needs room. I am not going to worry now.

I will let you all know how it goes.

Annette

Brian D. Bray · May 25, 2007, 10:25:55 PM

Many beekeepers, including me, refer to a queen excluder as a swarm producer. It is an added stress to a hive as the worker bees literally have to squeeze their way through. I've had hives that would swarm before going through them, even after baiting the super with frames of partially drawn comb and capped honey.

If you must use an excluder wait until the bees are up and working on it and then put the excluder on. They seem to be a bit more willing to pass through to get to someplace they've already been.

annette · May 25, 2007, 11:10:47 PM

If I wait until they are up and working in the super, I might trap the queen up there unknowingly. I really had no idea the queen excluder was such a problem, as so many beekeepers told me this is what you do when you finally want honey. Now I am feeling a bit worried, but if I remove the excluder, how can I eat honey that has brood extracted with it?

Now need help again with this new development.

Annette

Brian D. Bray · May 25, 2007, 11:28:25 PM

If you all the same size equipment like I do it's not a problem. I just consolidate any brood in the supers back into the brood chamber when I harvest because every frame is the same size. I also use a slatted rack in place of an excluder, which is something you might try. If you do, and need to buy one, the best commercially availble one is from betterbee.

Google the forum for slatted racks for more info.

sean · May 25, 2007, 11:38:37 PM

Quote from: annette on May 25, 2007, 11:10:47 PM
I, but if I remove the excluder, how can I eat honey that has brood extracted with it?

Now need help again with this new development.

Annette

Annette, what method of extraction do you use? if you use an extractor wait until the brood is sealed off and then you can extract. They will be unaffected. This is what i had to do for the first 2 extractions i did and i had the same concern. It will mean waiting a few extra days however. If you are still uncomfortable with this then you will just have to wait until they emerge/hatch and hope her majesty doesn't get there before you or her subjects

Shizzell · May 26, 2007, 01:09:02 AM

Also, the queen only goes as high as it wants. Eventually if you keep adding boxes after boxes, the queen will only draw so high. Then above that is all honey. You won't get brood in your honey stores if the queen is satisfied that her brood chamber is large enough. Like Brian said, slatted racks are nice, they had a lot of pluses, but I don't use them - just because they are another expense and the hives I have right now are doing just fine. Thats just me though.

Jake

AndersMNelson · May 26, 2007, 02:09:44 AM

What does anyone think about a top entrance to a super above the excluder while leaving the bottom entrance? Might that reduce stress and isolate the brood from the honey and pollen?

Shizzell · May 26, 2007, 09:09:25 AM

I drill a hole through every-other super I have plus the top brood chamber. I drill a 1in. in diameter in the top left side of the ones I do. They do not fill the hole, and I have noticed it has increased my hive's production by atleast 50%. Also, it cuts down on bearding, swarming, and I don't have to buy more equipment, such as a top entrance. I'ed consider a hole before buying a top entrance.

Jake

Check this post for more info:

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=4535.0

Michael Bush · May 26, 2007, 09:47:18 AM

>how can I eat honey that has brood extracted with it?

Why would you extract honey that has brood in it? Why wouldn't you just leave it with the hive? Why would the bees want brood all over the place? They want a consolidated brood nest, not brood scattered everywhere.

>What does anyone think about a top entrance to a super above the excluder while leaving the bottom entrance? Might that reduce stress and isolate the brood from the honey and pollen?

If I were using an excluder I would definitely have a top entrance. But then I already do. Most of the newer inner covers from most manufactures now seem to have a notch in the inner cover that will serve for this. Or you can notch it yourself.

Personally, I quit using excluders (except for manipulations that require isolating a queen like queen rearing) 32 years ago and have never regretted it.

>I drill a 1in. in diameter in the top left side of the ones I do.

I hate holes in my equipment. Seems like I still have a lot of it with holes I drilled, but it's difficult to seal up a hive to move it and if I'm stacking equipment I want to keep bees or moths out of it seems like I often miss one and the bees or the moths or the mice get in because of it.

>I have noticed it has increased my hive's production by atleast 50%.

Good ventilation will do that. And the holes will give you good ventilation. But so will SBB (Screened Bottom Boards), Slatted Racks, top entrances etc.