Just though I'd post the question. I'm in a honey flow right now and would like to have the girls draw out some wax foundation in a few shallows. Would checkerboarding 3 or 4 frames into the new super with uncapped honey help get the bees to draw and fill the fresh foundation? I have a couple hives that have pretty much filled up the honey supers on them but I'm not quite ready to pull and extract yet. I know a lot will depend on how long the flow will last but will the checkerboarding help?
Thanks
>Would checkerboarding 3 or 4 frames into the new super with uncapped honey help get the bees to draw and fill the fresh foundation?
Checkerboarding of any kind in a honey super is a bad idea. If you have drawn comb interspersed with foundation, they will ignore the foundation and draw the drawn comb out fatter. If you intersperse foundation with foundationless, they will build fat combs on the foundationless and ignore the foundation. If you intersperse foundationless with drawn comb they will draw the drawn comb out fatter. The thickness of these combs makes it impossible to remove the other frames, unless you flip the box upside down and remove the box first.
The reason for this is that honey comb can be any thickness. Brood comb, on the other hand, has to be a specific thickness so it's not a problem when you do this in the broodnest as long as you don't spread them too thin where they can't keep the brood warm.
Thanks, good explanation of what goes on in a hive. I'll just add the undrawn supers on top of the hives and let the bees do their thing.
Quote from: Michael Bush on August 10, 2016, 12:57:18 PM
>Would checkerboarding 3 or 4 frames into the new super with uncapped honey help get the bees to draw and fill the fresh foundation?
Checkerboarding of any kind in a honey super is a bad idea.
Checkerboarding of any kind a bad idea? What about foundation between completely capped honey frames? And I know you are aware of checkerboarding drawn comb in honey supers.
>Checkerboarding of any kind a bad idea?
I said :"Checkerboarding of any kind in a honey super is a bad idea."
>What about foundation between completely capped honey frames?
It can work. I've seldom done it, though. Why not just harvest the honey?
> And I know you are aware of checkerboarding drawn comb in honey supers.
As a late winter manipulation to prevent swarming, it has it's proponents. But I would not do it with the intent of getting anything drawn. It's empty drawn comb and capped drawn comb which is why it doesn't end up a mess.
Quote from: Michael Bush on August 10, 2016, 12:57:18 PM
>Would checkerboarding 3 or 4 frames into the new super with uncapped honey help get the bees to draw and fill the fresh foundation?
Yes I did catch the honey super part... sorry I did not transpose that part :wink: I was actually not relating you comment to the time of year. I see now that is what you meant... I think. I was thinking of Walt Wright and CBing honey suppers.
Maybe I'm missing something. I've read all of Walt Wright's articles on checker boarding. I've even re-read them to make sure I (think I) understand. He refers to alternating capped frames of honey with drawn comb. He began by doing so in the first super above the brood nest (a honey super). Later he experimented with checker boarding the middle of three boxes - breaking the brood nest into two parts - one above & one below. Again ONLY with alternating capped honey frames & drawn frames.
From: http://beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/...
"Checkerboarding is what we call removing frames 3, 5 and 7 of honey in the top hive body and feed box and substituting empty brood comb. The intent is to provide continuous storage cells to the super above; a perforation of their honey dome. The bees should not have much trouble maintaining their band of feed honey in the empty comb because honey is available in adjacent combs."
"Those of you who saw the April ABJ may remember that the second part of my swarm prevention program was checkerboarding empty frames in the overhead honey stores. This was done going into winter so that it was in place for the spring build-up."
"Checker boarding" with foundation should be given another name - a bad one, because it's a bad idea. Checker boarding in the brood nest should probably only be done after reviewing Walt's articles on the subject. Otherwise, one can likely do more harm than good.
I guess it's not hard to believe that the info has been around for over twenty years, and seems to have "morphed" into one of the most convoluted, misunderstood concepts around. There seems to be much more confusion than clarity on the subject.
Read the articles - DO IT RIGHT.
"The checkerboarding concept is so simple and so effective, I wonder how many thousands of beekeepers have taken it to their grave without divulging the secret to their contemporaries?"
Quote from: Colobee on August 13, 2016, 11:36:29 PM
Maybe I'm missing something. I've read all of Walt Wright's articles on checker boarding. I've even re-read them to make sure I (think I) understand. He refers to alternating capped frames of honey with drawn comb. He began by doing so in the first super above the brood nest (a honey super). Later he experimented with checker boarding the middle of three boxes - breaking the brood nest into two parts - one above & one below. Again ONLY with alternating capped honey frames & drawn frames.
No you are not missing anything. I took following statement above way too literal, "Checkerboarding of any kind in a honey super is a bad idea." It was in reference to checkerboarding foundation, and I read it very literal, my apologies to all :oops:
I have followed Walt closely for quite a few years. Walt Wrights checkerboarding only involves drawn comb and absolutely does not involve the brood chamber, AT ALL EVER...
I have posted on this forum many times about Walt's version of checkerboarding. Feel free to do a search. If you care to discuss Walt's method, it would be nice to have someone to discuss it with. One of my prize beekeeping items, is a hand written note from Walt before he became more computer savvy :grin: Walt was always eager to answer questions..
No offense intended - I may have also taken the statement "Checkerboarding of any kind in a honey super is a bad idea" too literally.
My understanding is that checkerboarding, as originally proposed by Walt, was done in the first honey super. Later variations included CB in the brood nest. The articles are rather long, and I found I that had to read them over ( & over) to clarify some of the concepts.
How fortunate of you to have a note like that from Walt. :smile:
Unfortunately the term "checkerboarding" is not used consistently. If someone is asking about "checkerboarding" foundation and drawn comb, then it is not "checkerboarding" in the sense that Walt Wright intended it. But it is often used to refer to any interspersing of two kinds of things in a hive including empty frames and brood, drawn comb and brood, empty frames and drawn comb, bare foundation and drawn comb, and even Walt's intention, drawn comb and capped comb. In this context it was being used as foundation and uncapped honey. The results of that are almost always fatter drawn comb with honey that protrudes into the space where the foundation is and unused foundation.
Quote from: Michael Bush on August 15, 2016, 02:00:41 PMIn this context it was being used as foundation and uncapped honey. The results of that are almost always fatter drawn comb with honey that protrudes into the space where the foundation is and unused foundation.
Agreed... Thanks
I don't know if Walt coined the phrase "checkerboarding" or not but there should be another term for alternating drawn comb with foundation or foundationless frames so the newbies don't get confused. Maybe striping the supers would be an option.
Quote from: Acebird on August 15, 2016, 09:42:22 PM
I don't know if Walt coined the phrase "checkerboarding" or not but there should be another term for alternating drawn comb with foundation or foundationless frames so the newbies don't get confused. Maybe striping the supers would be an option.
Walt actually called it nectar management when he started. Well not really a catchy term and don't roll off the tongue real good :wink: Someone along the line coined it checkerbaording...
Did not Walt only checkboard in the spring ?
BEE HAPPY Jim 134. :smile:
checkerboarding is a great way to keep bees pushing forward in a honey supper--drawn comb is the golden
ticket in this senario--however itsa great way to build new comb evenly-also if its a mater of a fresh box of
foundation-even just a singel frame of drawn comb will pull bees up and start to draw out the new foundation faster--
baiting the supper--- :smile:
checkerboarding is a technique for improved honey yeilds--and is not to be considered a brood box manipulation -it
simply wont work the same--its a great way to keep the bees pushing forward during a flow :happy: RDY-B
Quote from: Jim 134 on August 16, 2016, 12:02:53 AM
Did not Walt only checkboard in the spring ?
BEE HAPPY Jim 134. :smile:
That is correct 8 weeks before white wax. Drawn comb until white wax. After white wax foundation supers are good. Always stay two boxes ahead of the bees.
two boxes of what--makes a big diferance-empty frames of drawn comb-in the true fashion two boxes that
are checkerboarded correctly give you a singel box of open comb--its the available space made open that push the bees --
what it dose is keeps the bees from chimineying up through the center -although i have seen a different effect when using
a inside feeder that is of two gallon size-this size feeder takes two frame space--the bees never push up and fill the frames
above the feeder--takes a Little more effort to move frames a round before second box is added-but on the other hand i think the whole point that walt was making was its the incomplete space above the bees that checerboarding created is what is the driving force that pushes them harder to fill a honey supper --over supering will not achieve the same results --wheather checerboarded or not-but where i chase honey is not a easy task- we supper one at a time--RDY in cali :cool:
Quote from: Acebird on August 15, 2016, 09:42:22 PM
I don't know if Walt coined the phrase "checkerboarding" or not but there should be another term for alternating drawn comb with foundation or foundationless frames so the newbies don't get confused. Maybe striping the supers would be an option.
I'd vote for Beckerchoarding, since it's "bass-akwards" , and has been mentioned - usually just results in messed up comb and/or brood nest problems.
(Jim 134) "
Did not Walt only checkboard in the spring ?"
No, one of the articles describes it as beginning with a fall manipulation.
Again, from: http://beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/checkerboarding-a-preliminary-update-on-my-swarm-control-method/
"
Those of you who saw the April ABJ may remember that the second part of my swarm prevention program was checkerboarding empty frames in the overhead honey stores. This was done going into winter so that it was in place for the spring build-up."
In his articles, Walt refers to CB as a "swarm prevention technique". He sought to break the "honey dome" that confined the brood nest, by inserting 3 alternating frames of empty comb. In reviewing the results, he found that it not only reduced swarming, it dramatically increased honey yield - by encouraging the bees to expand the brood nest by more than 50%.
Would those of you who have taken the time to read the articles, please raise your hand? This is some pretty basic homework if you want to be a better beekeeper. :smile:
I actually had two copies of his manuscript and gave one away.
It is not a spring manipulation it is a winter manipulation in my area. 8 weeks before white wax is the end of February here, our coldest month. That is not something I wanted to try. For me I think it is unnecessary in my location. The honey dome is already eaten through by the bees. They have more then enough room for expansion and they don't waste any time doing it if the hive is healthy. I believe too many newbies have bee fever in the spring and jump in the hive too early up here. And that starts off their struggle for the new season.
Colobee- rdy-b acebird- sorry long post but continue if you wish ;)
Colobee- all due respect I believe you need to look at the date on the article you are reading(posted). As you read his articles, you need to update your thought process along with Walt as he learned and adapted his system. Checkerboarding (updated version) is a before flow manipulation. Not a fall manipulation. Even some of his article diagrams were incorrect or undated according to Walt.
rdy-b- two boxes of what? It depends on where you are in the season. Two boxes of empty space above the brood chamber, after checkerbaording honey super. If it is before white was it is two empty boxes of drawn comb. If it is after white wax, which would be later in season, it is two empty boxes of foundation.
You mention a feeder. Walt did not feed unless an extreme emergency. He did write other article on other issues other than Cbing. One was on adding syrup in already drawn comb and feeding that way. But Walt was a proponent of leaving enough honey for the bees.
Acebird- You are correct. Calling it a spring manipulation is a bit of fudging. It is a pre-flow manipulation. And for all that is most likely not going to be quite Spring. For me white wax is usually around the second week of April. So I am looking at second week of February. And granted my Februarys are mild and sometimes spring like. Really spring like.
Walt acknowledged he had no idea if the system would work for Northern beeks and encouraged Northern beeks to try it. I heard of reports of a few that said it would work but they as northern beeks had to figure the time table out and implement the basic manipulations of the system adapted to their season. It is really not a weather/ temp dependent system but a colony development timing based system. The development just in most cases seems to be easily tied to temps and time of year.
As far as entering the hive in cold weather, it is a honey box manipulation and not a brood box manipulation. So you should not be chilling the brood etc.
All following-Walt was looking for a method of swarm prevention and stumbled on the fact that his technique to control swarms also encouraged a by-product of more nectar being gathered. The concept paired with the phase of colony development works on the premise that bees see a ceiling and don't like open space and want to fill the ceiling. When bees see that ceiling then the reproduction instinct ( if year timing is right) kicks in and swarm preps begin, That is why it is always important in Cbing to stay two complete empty supers ahead of the bees.
Walts last wintering configuration based on the best I recall. If someone knows something different please let me know:
Honey super (shallow)
Honey super (shallow)
Brood Chamber (deep)
Pollen Box (Shallow)
-----------------------Bottom Board
After 1st manipulation it would look like this:
HEHEHEHEHE
EHEHHEHEHE
HHHHHHHHHH
BBBBBBBBBB
--------------- Bottom Board ( all the E's at this time are drawn comb... no foundation)
The system is intended to be one manipulation before flow and after that just stack boxes on top.
We have totally managed to hi-jack beeboys thread... sorry my apologies. If some would like to discuss Walt Wrights method of chekerboarding maybe we need to start a thread :wink:
**You mention a feeder. Walt did not feed unless an extreme emergency. He did write other article on other issues other than Cbing. One was on adding syrup in already drawn comb and feeding that way. But Walt was a proponent of leaving enough honey for the bees.**
yes yes but the isue is why checkerboarding works as promoted by WR-its how bees react to open space above them--
the brood nest -the feeder is not part of the broodnest-it just happens to be in there taking up space--the bees dont reckinise the
open space directly above a feeder-they fill that space from the sides not straight up--this should suport the therory of checkerbparding from the view point of the bee--
location location location--where i stand its not that easy to just stack empty boxes and the bees fill them --you have a specal thing going if it sthat easy-- :shocked: RDY-B
Quote from: rdy-b on August 17, 2016, 01:14:06 AM
you have a specal thing going if it sthat easy-- :shocked: RDY-B
Nothing is never that easy... always something right? I just explained the process I think the way WW wrote it.
I re-read the post about the feeder multiple times. It just went right over my head :embarassed: But I am low to the ground and round :wink: I am sure I am getting side tracked on the feeder thing.... yes it is the open space no ceiling effect you are looking for.
whats the jest is --the same reason the bees don't work the two frames above the feeder is
exactly what supports the checkerboard therory--the bees dont recognize the frames above the feeder in the first box
only the unfilled comb over there head--its a bee thing-- :cool: RDY-B
Quote from: sc-bee on August 16, 2016, 04:35:30 PM
As far as entering the hive in cold weather, it is a honey box manipulation and not a brood box manipulation. So you should not be chilling the brood etc.
Yes, I understood right from the beginning that it IS a honey box manipulation and not a brood box manipulation but to break into a hive in very cold weather breaks up all the sealing that the bees have done in the fall and it is too cold in some areas of the hive to fix it after you have gone in. If you try to do it 2-3 weeks prior to the flow when it is warmer you will gain nothing. Some people wrap a hive up here, I don't, but that creates another problem. I think these two reasons are why Walt's method was not welcomed with open arms up here. The idea of striping a honey box (alternating drawn comb and foundation or foundationless) with the intention of drawing comb is not a new idea and it has nothing to do with Walt's checkerboarding although the term is commonly used for it. Reference the topic title.
SC, how can you call it a hi jack when the term is used in the title?
It's great to see this discussion. Checker Boarding, and the many variations, seems to come up rather regularly. All too often it is some variation involving alternating foundation, and the brood nest - some malignant mutation destined to cause more bad than good. I suppose someone might observe that it is one of my "pet peeves".
I've read the many WW articles. I've re-read them. I've referred back to them frequently. They are rather lengthy as a whole, and I've never had the time to read them all at one sitting, then sit and digest and contemplate them. I often quote Walt when some misguided alternate version is proposed - which seems to be just about every time it comes up. It's difficult to place everything into it's proper prospective, especially considering the quantity of information from Walt, alone.
The observation that it may work better in some places & some times certainly comes as no surprise. Not unlike just about any other technique in beekeeping - there's Florida beekeeping, and Montana beekeeping. Cali & Vermont - & everywhere in between, and all have local influences that affect the outcome of any approach.
Again - great discussion. If someone were to condense the actual Checker Boarding process as Walt developed and described it, it would get my vote for "Sticky" status!
Quote from: Acebird on August 17, 2016, 08:57:24 AM
Quote from: sc-bee on August 16, 2016, 04:35:30 PM
As far as entering the hive in cold weather, it is a honey box manipulation and not a brood box manipulation. So you should not be chilling the brood etc.
Yes, I understood right from the beginning that it IS a honey box manipulation and not a brood box manipulation but to break into a hive in very cold weather breaks up all the sealing that the bees have done in the fall and it is too cold in some areas of the hive to fix it after you have gone in. If you try to do it 2-3 weeks prior to the flow when it is warmer you will gain nothing. Some people wrap a hive up here, I don't, but that creates another problem. I think these two reasons are why Walt's method was not welcomed with open arms up here. The idea of striping a honey box (alternating drawn comb and foundation or foundationless) with the intention of drawing comb is not a new idea and it has nothing to do with Walt's checkerboarding although the term is commonly used for it. Reference the topic title.
SC, how can you call it a hi jack when the term is used in the title?
Acebird I agree totally. I do not know if it will work in colder climates and as I and you are totally aware ww was looking for folks to try the system and let him know. I know you participated in conversation with ww frequently over on the other site. As in the "lier" thread. What did ww say, I never imagined my grammar would be corrected by an acebird :wink:
At least I am guessing it is the same acebird as I am the same sc-bee
As far as hi-jacking the thread maybe not directly but as you said here the OP was not speaking of the ww checkerboarding and that is where we went. The OP was speaking of trying to get foundation drawn by alternating it in supers. I just did not want the OP to think his intention of the thread had been abandoned. Not sure the OP is even here anymore. That is all I was saying :happy:
Quote from: Colobee on August 17, 2016, 10:47:19 AM
Again - great discussion. If someone were to condense the actual Checker Boarding process as Walt developed and described it, it would get my vote for "Sticky" status!
colobee- I was in contact with ww in the spring of 2014. I could not convince him to come over and join bbemaster but I was updating him on this thread in 2014. I was trying to get folks to try the system. If many did try they did not relay the information. ww's work or observations were dismissed by most/many seasoned beeks as it went against their prior learning. Some called it bologna... right acebird. He was trying to get through to the open minded new beek. One issue was many older beeks have/had been moving frames (in particular of brood) for many years and I guess called it checkerbaording. Thus the confusion and disagree sat in. When ww system that did not involve brood frames got coined chekerboarding many found it offensive and were very out spoken about it. And I think ww could be a little stubborn on bending himself... and was trying to get the word out and was beat-up quite frequently. Some of the threads got a little heated...
ww explanations get way too deep for me (his NASA engineering background) and many disagreed with his concept and description of the why's in relation to bee behavior as he observed and recorded. I really did not get hung up on the whys you can perform the manipulation, it can be done just knowing the hows.
Here is the 2014 post. In it you will find a cold weather beek that was using it. Not sure if now. The beek is beewrangler-dennis. I am not sure if the bee wranglers link still works, he has changed domains a few times?
http://www.beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=43892.0
No the bee wrangler linlk is an old domain. I will see if I can locate his new one.
Quote from: sc-bee on August 17, 2016, 02:18:58 PM
As in the "lier" thread. What did ww say, never imained his grammar would be corrected by an acebird :wink:
I vaguely remember that golden moment. It had to happen by accident :-) But I can tell you I did enjoy Walter's discussions probably more so then he thought. I do not like that discussions have turned his methods into something he was not arguing for and I whole heartily respect his engineering background and his trouble conveying his message to others. He was by far the most civil person I met on the other side discussing opposing views. I do miss him. Can't say that for most of the other side.
Beemaster's has changed since I first joined, for the better. There does not appear to be a lot of moderation and people are much more civil to other peoples views. I don't know why it changed but I like it. It is what a forum should be. Discussions without repercussions.
Quote from: Acebird on August 17, 2016, 08:55:13 PM
Beemaster's has changed since I first joined, for the better. There does not appear to be a lot of moderation and people are much more civil to other peoples views. I don't know why it changed but I like it. It is what a forum should be. Discussions without repercussions.
Agreed... as long as folks don't get personal the Mods pretty well stay out of sight... but they are here :wink: As John often states... agree to disagree. Folks here seem to get along pretty well
Good group of moderators also.
Picture this scernario - I did my inspection the other day to find a lot of fully capped honey frames in the super that I could remove. I didn't have any drawn comb to replace them with, only foundation. I placed foundation frames between fully capped honey frames.. only afterwards I thought to myself that this might not be the best idea, but it's been done now. Is this likely to cause a problem?
**Again - great discussion. If someone were to condense the actual Checker Boarding process as Walt developed and described it, it would get my vote for "Sticky" status!**
the links to the articles he produce are here--- http://beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/
http://beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/checkerboarding-works/
http://beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/checkerboarding-a-preliminary-update-on-my-swarm-control-method/
http://beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/nectar-management-101/
nectar managment is what is the comon denominator-- :smile:--RDY-B
Quote from: PhilK on August 17, 2016, 10:53:44 PM
I placed foundation frames between fully capped honey frames.. only afterwards I thought to myself that this might not be the best idea, but it's been done now. Is this likely to cause a problem?
It is more likely to prevent a problem of messed up comb.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesexperiment.htm
It would be better if you read Walt's manuscript, but I'll give a synopsis of the idea of checkerboarding here. Remember this is an oversimplification.
For a bee colony:
o Survival is the primary motivation
- Survival of the existing colony takes priority.
- Bees will not do a reproductive swarm if they perceive it to jeopardize survival of the existing colony.
o Survival of the species runs a close second.
- Generation of a reproductive swarm is the secondary objective of every over-wintered colony.
- The over-wintered colony expands the brood volume during the build-up by consumption of honey.
- When the colony has expanded the brood nest to the amount of reserve that they consider appropriate, they are now able to move into the swarm preparation phase.
- The first activity of swarm preparation is to reduce the brood volume by providing additional stores. As brood emerges, selected cells are filled with nectar or pollen.
- Alternating empty drawn combs above the brood nest "fools" the bees into thinking they don't have enough stores yet for swarming and causes them to expand the brood nest, giving both a bigger field force and avoiding reproductive swarming.
To put some of this another way, the colony goes through different goals at different times.
A new swarm starts out with the goal of getting established. They draw a lot of comb and try to expand the brood nest as much as possible to get established and then they go into winter preparation, which is trying to store sufficient stores for the winter. If they accomplish all of this and get over crowded they might cast a swarm to relieve the population problem.
The next year the hive will start out with the goal of reaching a safe position to cast a reproductive swarm. That means the population has to build up enough to afford to lose that many bees and the stores have to be high enough for them to lose that many foragers. Then they go into swarm preparation mode and start backfilling the brood nest. At some point, which Walt calls the Reproductive swarm cut-off, they decide they will or won't swarm.
The goal of Checkboarding is to keep them in the build-up phase until after Reproductive swarm cut-off by making them think they don't have enough stores and giving the brood nest room to expand.
If you look at your bees and your blooms and your climate, this Reproductive cut-off is usually the peak of the apple blossoms or a week after the apples START to bloom. The time to do Checkboarding is 9 weeks before that. That's about when the Elm blooms or four weeks before the Maples bloom or five weeks before the Redbud blooms or eight weeks before the apples start blooming or ten weeks before the black locust starts blooming. Hopefully you have some idea when one of those blooms in your location. NOTE: in theory these are all ways of pinpointing the same stage of vegetative development, they are just different reference points to figure it out for your location, I'm just listing all the different blooms in case you know when one of them is to calculate from.
At that time (9 weeks before Reproductive cut-off/the peak of the apple blossoms) you checkerboard. You put alternating frames of capped honey and empty drawn comb above the brood nest.
Thanks MB for the synopsis
You're doing a great job over on the CB Synopsis Thread, Sc-Bee - Kudos! I haven't had the time to read through it, yet, but rest assured, I will. Thanks, again!
Hopefully that thread can continue to be "just the facts, Jack" & no miscellaneous Q&A & comments & variations & etc.. So it can be left a short but very informative "Sticky". :wink:
So much for a simple question, great discussion about how, when and why to checkerboard in a hive. Got my answer early on which is why I've been lurking not posting. Thanks All :smile:
Quote from: Beeboy01 on August 19, 2016, 02:15:18 PM
Got my answer early on which is why I've been lurking not posting. Thanks All :smile:
:cool: