I went in my hive yesterday [day 8 of newly installed package] and have a few questions. This is the oil tray, and it looks like there is one hive beetle in it. Would you look with your educated eye and see if you see any signs of mites. I'm going back in on Monday - weather permitting, and will clean this tray at that time.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
It looks to me like these bees are drawing pretty large cells to me.
[attachment=1][/attachment]
[attachment=2][/attachment]
I did find the queen
[attachment=3][/attachment]
You should be able to access the tray without bothering the bees. Clean it and put it in for one day. Check it every day for a week. Other insects will eat mites among other things in the tray. You numbers are not accurate if you wait a week.
Seeb,
It is a little fuzzy but I do not see any mites.
The hive looks like it is building up fast.
I would not go into this hive for at least 2 weeks. Inspections set them back.
I see your queen in the fourth picture.
Jim Altmiller
Ace - You are right, I can clean it without disturbing the bees, and will follow your advice, and clean it today / everyday for a week.
Jim - Whew! that's encouraging news. I will have to open the hive to feed since I have a frame feeder, but can do this without messing with the bees. Since the feeder holds a gallon i'm thinking it should last at least a week between refills. I will wait another 2 weeks before inspecting again.
Do y'all think the size of the cells being drawn is normal? The foundation I installed on every other frame is the 4.9mm for mite control. Maybe the cells just look large because the workers are small/young. Not that there would be anything I could do about it, but just curious.
As always - I do appreciate you all
Ms. Seeb, you mentioned small cell, below are articles for your review.
Berry, J.A., Owens, W.B., Delaplane, K.S. (2010) Small-cell comb foundation does not impede Varroa mite population growth in honey bee colonies. Apidologie 41, 40?44.
Coffey, M.F., Breen, J., Brown, M.J.F., McMullan, J.B. (2010) Brood-cell size has no influence on the population dynamics of Varroa destructor mites in the native western honey bee, Apis mellifera mellifera. Apidologie 41, 522?530.
Ellis, A.M., Hayes, G.W., Ellis, J.D. (2009) The efficacy of small cell foundation as a Varroa mite (Varroa destructor) control. Exp. Appl. Acarol. 47, 311?316.
Zhou, T., J. Yao, S.X. Huang, Z.Y. Huang. 2001. Larger cell size reduces varroa mite reproduction. Proceedings of the American Bee Research Conference, American Bee Journal 141: 895-896.
Taylor, M.A., Goodwin, R.M., McBrydie, H.M., Cox, H.M. (2008) The effect of honeybee worker brood cell size on Varroa destructor infestation and reproduction. J. Apic. Res. 47, 239?242.
Many article for reference of small cell and varroa.
Quote from: Seeb on April 04, 2020, 09:48:07 AM
Do y'all think the size of the cells being drawn is normal? The foundation I installed on every other frame is the 4.9mm for mite control. Maybe the cells just look large because the workers are small/young. Not that there would be anything I could do about it, but just curious.
Obviously this is sort of a controversial issue, but I wouldn't be too concerned about cell size. I tend to take a "bees know best" sort of approach to it. Bees have been building comb for thousands of years, and they know the size workers they want. Personally, I use no foundation of any kind, and just let my bees build however they want (as long as it's reasonably straight). That's just my opinion however. I think that small cell is possibly a good addition to a mite control regimen; as Van just posted, there has been a lot of research done on it. I just wouldn't worry if the bees don't agree exactly to the cell size we think is best for them.
Thanks for the links Van and input Member - and I agree, they will build the size they need.
I'm not worried about it at all - just curious, as I've never seen cells this size except for drone [I'm looking at comb they are building without the bought foundation in particular - picture # 2]. Of course it's been a long time since I've kept bees, and my memory's not what it use to be - lol
Quote from: Seeb on April 04, 2020, 01:12:00 PM
Thanks for the links Van and input Member - and I agree, they will build the size they need.
I'm not worried about it at all - just curious, as I've never seen cells this size except for drone [I'm looking at comb they are building without the bought foundation in particular - picture # 2]. Of course it's been a long time since I've kept bees, and my memory's not what it use to be - lol
I'll just mention that sometimes bees will build bigger cells to store honey in, but with a package that doesn't seem very likely to me, since they'd be focused primarily on brood at this point. I do see two drones sitting on that frame, but with the package just getting started in the hive, I'm assuming they must have come from another hive somewhere around you. In my admittedly limited experience, a package wouldn't be thinking about drones yet either.
The drones probably came from the package. Most packages will have drones unless the seller is using queen excluders to catch his queens.
Jim Altmiller
Agreed
Very good research Mr Van. Thanks for posting.
new bees - 11th day
~The girls are bringing in pollen daily.
~The other day when I went into the hive, the supplemental pollen patty I gave them was near gone.
~When I resupply their syrup tomorrow, should I also add another pollen patty given that they are bringing in real pollen?
~ Are they using the supplemental pollen just to clear it out of the hive, or do they need it - how does one know?
~When I resupply their syrup tomorrow, should I also add another pollen patty given that they are bringing in real pollen?
Seeb I would be a little hesitant to add pollen patties this time of year because of SHB.
Phillip
I would be a little hesitant to add pollen patties this time of year because of SHB.
Phillip
Wow - so many things to remember. Thanks Phillip, I?ll take your advice
Seeb,
If there is a lot of flowers blooming, I would it worry about pollen supplements.
Jim Altmiller
[attachment=0][/attachment]
new hive day 16
24 hour tray assessment - found 3 mites today
Quote from: Seeb on April 10, 2020, 07:06:01 PM
new hive day 16
24 hour tray assessment - found 3 mites today
For this time of year I would say that is a high if it was an average for the week. Count every day for 10 days. Was this a package?
Ace, yes this was a new package installed on March 26th, in new equipment. I've been checking daily for the past week and this is the first time i've seen mites. I'm wondering if I would get a better count using a sticky board as opposed to an oil tray, or does that even matter if finding 3 this time of year is high.
I would be interested in your thought on getting this under control, I was hoping not to use chemicals. I'll post todays count when I check it this afternoon
Ms. Seeb, if you do not wish to use chemicals then apply a brood bread AFTER the flow. Remove all capped brood, freeze or start another hive,,, late July or August, leave one open frame of larva known as a trap comb. After trap comb is capped, remove and freeze. Your hive will be mostly mite free and ready to make winter bees.
The above is the short version, very brief I might add, to control mites for optimal winter healthy bees.
I have been studying the heck out of Varroa, scientists have determined that 8.7 percent mite load is the critical level. Above this level results in Spring hive crash. Mites attain this level in July or August with hives that experience a winter brood break and commence brood rearing in or about February. So Florida and Portions of California and the like, are not applicable to above.
If you are worried about loss of bees by removing the capped brood then understand this: bees live longer if they are not feeding brood so your natural die off of bees is interrupted as the bees within the hive will live longer than the normal 6 weeks.
The above has been practiced by commercial German and Italian beek for a few years now, successfully.
Quote from: van from Arkansas on April 11, 2020, 10:19:39 AM
Ms. Seeb, if you do not wish to use chemicals then apply a brood bread AFTER the flow. Remove all capped brood, freeze or start another hive,,, late July or August, leave one open frame of larva known as a trap comb. After trap comb is capped, remove and freeze. Your hive will be mostly mite free and ready to make winter bees.
The above is the short version, very brief I might add, to control mites for optimal winter healthy bees.
I have been studying the heck out of Varroa, scientists have determined that 8.7 percent mite load is the critical level. Above this level results in Spring hive crash. Mites attain this level in July or August with hives that experience a winter brood break and commence brood rearing in or about February. So Florida and Portions of California and the like, are not applicable to above.
If you are worried about loss of bees by removing the capped brood then understand this: bees live longer if they are not feeding brood so your natural die off of bees is interrupted as the bees within the hive will live longer than the normal 6 weeks.
The above has been practiced by commercial German and Italian beek for a few years now, successfully.
Great information, Van. I'm going to do some additional research on this and maybe give it a try this year.
I agree - if your getting mite drop on a 2 week(ish) old package install, that's [potentially] not good. All mites right now should be diving into [or already be in] soon-to-be-capped brood. During spring buildup, you don't see many mites dropping even in heavily infested hives, due to brood buildup.
This suggests that maybe your package has so many mites, that some are dropping. If that is the case, some intervention on your part would be required (speaking from experience).
1st - I'd be wanting to determine the overall mite load in this hive. Then, based on that knowledge, I'd determine a course of action.
... It also could mean that your bees are very hygienic and quickly "dealt with" 3 mites that found their way into the hive - thus, I'd want to determine infestation level 1st.
04/11/20 hive tray check - the oil tray has no mites or SHB today that I can see, in fact - it's clean of almost all debris compared to other daily checks. The temps got down in the mid 30's last night, and I wonder if that has anything to do with how clean the oil tray is today.
Van - I'm going to have to investigate and read several more times to understand all you are saying. It sounds like it will work, and I thank you for taking the time to reply. I may have more questions about this later.
CB - given that there have not been honeybee's in my immediate area in several years, I expect these mites came with my bee package and that scares me to thinking the mites are many, and maybe until I get them under control, I should go ahead and treat.
I will continue the routine of daily checks, and am thinking when I go into the hive on Tuesday to replenish their syrup, I should take out a few bees and try a powered sugar shakedown. I'm certainly open to any thoughts.
Want to share pic from my Itoh Peony as well
[attachment=0][/attachment]
Beautiful flowers. :grin:
I'm not saying you "do" have a major mite problem. I'm saying you "might" have a major mite problem - and might-should be monitoring via your preferred method. ... I prefer alcohol wash - and/or opening capped brood - to find the answers. Everyone has their own preference.
What you decide to do after you "know" the answer, is entirely your call. (I started out TF - until all my hives died. Now I treat with OAV as needed - based on monitoring). Keep us updated.
Also note: I'm not one of the foremost experts here - just speaking from some experience regarding massive mite infestations.
Seeb, I don't treat regardless of what the numbers are but I do want to know if a hive is struggling and for what reason. I also do not push newbies to do all the things ESPECIALLY when they don't know halve the things.
Notes:
It looks like you have a commercial SBB. This is not going to work if the tray is dry. Mites and SHB will just re-enter the hive through the screen. The tray must be 1.5-2in away from the screen if the tray is dry. Secondly, this area must be blocked at all times so bees cannot visit the tray. Otherwise the mites just hitch another ride into the hive.
I am not fond of feeding but I have read a lot of bad reports using an entrance feeder. No experience here.
Where I come from: In my book newbies do far too much intervention and not enough hands off observation early on, mostly because they are pushed into it. You will never know what the bees will do on their own if you don't let them do it.
Good luck with your hives and really concentrate on what is local.
Thank you Ace, I really appreciate your input and want to clarify so that you have the full picture
I have the authentic Freeman bottom board; it has a very tight seal so bees cannot get in, and I keep recycled mineral oil in it at all times.
The front feeder you see is used for water only. I don't want them over in my neighbors swimming pool so I give them water at the hive
I'm using an interior, 1 gallon frame feeder and do not intend to feed more than necessary to get this new hive going. I'm feeding them Pro-Sweet Liquid Feed.
I will continue to do daily tray checks as recommended, but Ace, what do you do when you have high counts of mites?
Coolbees, I understand the might have of your answer.
Here's a question though about an alcohol wash. I used all my alcohol making hand sanitizer - and good luck finding more right now. I have an unopened bottle of 40% Vodka that has been distilled 5 times and has been in my pantry for years, will this work just as well?
Seeb - very good question. I really don't know the answer to that. Hopefully someone here does.
Personally - that's exactly what I'd use, if I didn't have the normal stuff. But my willingness to experiment, shouldn't be construed as "good advice". :grin:
Here's some random thoughts:
Ace isn't wrong with his advice either - waiting 2 or 3 months for the hive to build strength before Alc. Wash, isn't going to change things much in the long run - except you'd have more mites by then. But, the loss of 300 bees then, wouldn't have as much of an impact on the colony. You either have lots mites already, or you dont. I've gone both ways in this situation - and both worked.
I've successfully recovered every hive that has gone over 50 mites per 300 bees (really bad infestation level), via OAV applied twice weekly (Sundays and Thursdays) for 5 weeks. Although I don't like the levels to get that high - I do like knowing what the levels are, and knowing what can and can't be done at that point.
There really is no "wrong" approach - just your choices on how your going to keep your bees in your area.
Quick story - a friend of mine (about 7 miles away) is basically totally Treatment Free. He opens his hives once a year to take some honey - nothing else. All his bees come from swarms. He has many hives die each year. Last fall he had 10 hives. This spring 4 remained. He's caught 5 more swarms in the last 3 weeks, and came to me for more equipment last week. Some would say he's wrong in his approach. Others would say he's going to end up with the only working solution to the Bee's issues - by letting nature sort things out. Who's right? ... that's another good question ... :grin:
I don't want to keep bees the way my friend does - but that doesn't make either of us wrong. ... just some thoughts ...
>Quick story - a friend of mine (about 7 miles away) is basically totally Treatment Free. He opens his hives once a year to
take some honey - nothing else. All his bees come from swarms. He has many hives die each year. Last fall he had 10
hives. This spring 4 remained. He's caught 5 more swarms in the last 3 weeks, and came to me for more equipment last
week. Some would say he's wrong in his approach. Others would say he's going to end up with the only working solution
to the Bee's issues - by letting nature sort things out. Who's right? ... that's another good question ... :grin:
I don't want to keep bees the way my friend does - but that doesn't make either of us wrong. ... just some thoughts ...
Good post Cool. As a side question. How much OAV do you use when treating twice weekly per five weeks. Good report.
Phillip
Quote from: Seeb on April 12, 2020, 10:35:34 AM
Here's a question though about an alcohol wash. I used all my alcohol making hand sanitizer - and good luck finding more right now. I have an unopened bottle of 40% Vodka that has been distilled 5 times and has been in my pantry for years, will this work just as well?
You could always do a sugar roll instead of an alcohol wash. It's a little less accurate than an alcohol wash, but it doesn't kill the bees, so that's how I monitor my mite levels. TheHoneyPump recommended to me to multiply the number of mites per hundred by 1.3 to help compensate for the inaccuracy of the sugar vs. the alcohol.
I like your "quick story" CB
Yes, everyone has different thoughts on how to keep bees and I totally respect that! I personally would like to be Treatment Free, but am grateful for ALL opinions. As Ace said, newbies don't know half the things out there for consideration.
Thanks member - do you still try to get about 1/2 cup [300 bees] for a sugar roll and take the test bees off the brood frames?
Quote from: Seeb on April 12, 2020, 01:17:23 PM
Thanks member - do you still try to get about 1/2 cup [300 bees] for a sugar roll and take the test bees off the brood frames?
Yes, a brood frame seems to be better. I generally try to roll a cup, just because I think that more bees is a little more accurate, but I?ve done it with half a cup if the frame wasn?t very full. I usually eyeball about a tablespoon of powdered sugar with my hive tool.
Quote from: Seeb on April 12, 2020, 10:35:34 AM
The front feeder you see is used for water only. I don't want them over in my neighbors swimming pool so I give them water at the hive
What an excellent idea! Bought one before I knew better... Had thought of donating it as a door prize, but that seems cruel to the unsuspecting. Will try it as a waterer.
Ms. Seeb, I am a hobbyist and I do a lot of beekeeping different from typical Beeks. With this in mind, I do not count mites. Why should I? I know the mites are present, I know the mites replicate, double every 3 weeks and by July or August the mites will pass a critical level therefore my winter bees will be permanently harmed, weakened by the mites thus not surviving the winter dying in February or March the following year. So, either I treat with an organic acid, or create a brood break and remove capped brood leaving behind a single trapping comb with open larva for catching most of the remaining mites.
So I do not count as I know the mites are present and I just hate killing those innocent bees that trust me. When I open a hive, the first thing I see is all the bees lined up between the frames, side by side looking up at me. I can?t kill those bees, no way. Like I said, I am a hobbyist. I understand commercial beeks must operate different from me if they wish their apiary to survive.
So, above is another option to consider, Ms. Seeb. One thing about bees, there are many ways to accomplish the desired goal.
Van
OMG! The Itoh peony !!!
Can't do peonies in the South. In upstate NY they would grow like weeds in the clay soil. Miss the peonies but not the snow.
Quote from: Seeb on April 11, 2020, 06:09:27 PM
04/11/20 hive tray check - the oil tray has no mites or SHB today that I can see, in fact - it's clean of almost all debris compared to other daily checks. The temps got down in the mid 30's last night, and I wonder if that has anything to do with how clean the oil tray is today.
Van - I'm going to have to investigate and read several more times to understand all you are saying. It sounds like it will work, and I thank you for taking the time to reply. I may have more questions about this later.
CB - given that there have not been honeybee's in my immediate area in several years, I expect these mites came with my bee package and that scares me to thinking the mites are many, and maybe until I get them under control, I should go ahead and treat.
I will continue the routine of daily checks, and am thinking when I go into the hive on Tuesday to replenish their syrup, I should take out a few bees and try a powered sugar shakedown. I'm certainly open to any thoughts.
Want to share pic from my Itoh Peony as well
[attachment=0][/attachment]
Ms. Seeb: How beautiful, manicured lawn, ornate hive frame, freshly painted hive and beautiful pee on me; that is what I call those flowers to raz the wife.
Quote from: Seeb on April 12, 2020, 10:35:34 AM
but Ace, what do you do when you have high counts of mites?
So far no intervention.
In 6 years I have lost about 6 hives. Two right off the bat from beginner mistakes, three from splits that didn't make it, one possibly mites.
This is my philosophy: If you treat you potentially save the hive but weaken the apiary. You create an apiary that now needs treatment to survive. Another thing that happens particularly for newbies is you make mistakes when intervening like rolling the queen and maybe overdose of chemicals. The hive dies and it is blamed on mites. It is my experience where I once lived that a hobbyist will end up with more hives then they want just from controlling swarms.
The hardest thing for a hobbyist is to maintain 3 hives. You will either have 6, one or none. That being said my goal is to try and maintain two hives in my new location and I know this is practically impossible right from the start.
If your goal is to be a hobbyist make your decisions based on your goal. If your goal is to make money don't pay attention to anything I say.
4/12 24 hour oil tray check - no sign of mites or SHB
If your goal is to be a hobbyist make your decisions based on your goal.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts Ace. I think the best thing for me to do is to write down my goals, so I can always reread them when information coming into my brain from books or different sites I follow gets me confused/off track. I'm not looking to make $ - my goal is to have one hive now, and hope to add a second, but no more.
I just hate killing those innocent bees that trust me
Okay Van, I was pretty certain I would not do a alcohol wash before reading your thoughts, but now I'm certain of it, almost made me cry.
also from Van - manicured lawn, ornate hive frame, freshly painted hive and beautiful pee on me; that is what I call those flowers to raz the wife
lol - if you could really see my place, you would chuckle at what you say is a manicured lawn - when the guy that cuts my "grass" comes, he says - "well, it's time to cut your weeds", and surely he is right. I can see you now aggravating [razzing] your wife. I bet you two have lots of laughs.
Will try it as a waterer/color]
William - lol, so glad it now has a use that won't cause you to have years of guilt!
FG - so glad you like the Peony - here's what it looks like today. I'm zone 7b in sandy soil, and my herbaceous peonies do not do well at all, but my brother gave me this Itoh back in 2015, and it is a real champion
[attachment=0][/attachment]
Ace - very well said!
Seeb - you've got this. :grin:
Why, thank you CB - most kind of you to show faith.
April 13th - no mites or SHB
Quote from: Seeb on April 13, 2020, 11:11:22 AM
my goal is to have one hive now, and hope to add a second, but no more.
As I just said this is impossible... You have chosen a goal that is the most difficult to succeed. To make matters worse you have a hard time with letting bees die. Keep me posted. I suspect you will have 6 or none before you say enough is enough.
LOL Ace - maybe I should explain. I kept 2 hives for 3 or 4 years, and any swarms, etc that I got, I gave away. I have a hard time with anything dying by my own hand; I did not kill my own rabbits, chicken, goats, sheep, but I ate them. That's not to say I can't do a bee wash, but only as a last resort [and I'd never let Van know I did it].
You may very well be right about the 6 hives, as long as I have the $$ and health to handle them - never say never
Quote from: Seeb on April 14, 2020, 09:27:24 PM
I have a hard time with anything dying by my own hand; I did not kill my own rabbits, chicken, goats, sheep, but I ate them.
LOL You and my wife. She was a vegetarian for 39 years. Now her favorite food is bacon and second is a rare stake. She wants me to be the murderer and I don't particularly enjoy it either but I can do it. Makes it tough to control the pet population if you can't cull the herd. After forcing me to have bees she is totally hands off. Everything else she tells me what to do. I got to love her. She has made such a positive difference in my life. My fear of bees is all but gone and I can now enjoy these amazing creatures. :smile:
Now her favorite food is bacon and second is a rare stake
I love em rare too! Sounds like you two are perfect for each other. It's always nice to hear one brag on their partner, makes my day.