Could they need another box already?!

Ernest T. Bass · June 19, 2009, 12:32:47 AM

Hi all!

Last week Tuesday I checked on my two hives and found that they were doing quite well, and were about 60-70% finished filling their second, foundationless medium brood boxes. I put a third empty medium on both of them and moved up a frame from each of the two boxes below. I figured with all that room and the somewhat opened lower brood chambers that they would be good to go on their own for a couple weeks, as it took several weeks to fill their second box. Well, here it is just over a week later and I noticed this evening that there was a baseball-sized beard on one of the hives.. It's only 70 degrees out, and the SBB is open. Each hive has a slatted rack and a wide open top entrance. :? Is there any way they are cramped for room already, or are they (literally) just hangin' out?

Thanks,
Andrew

JP · June 19, 2009, 12:51:34 AM

What did you bring up into the new box? Keep the brood nest tight as long as she is laying a good pattern. Don't break up the brood nest. They will move up when they are ready to, by breaking up the brood nest you make them work harder at regulating temperatures within the hive.

...JP

Ernest T. Bass · June 19, 2009, 01:10:00 AM

I pulled frames that were nearer to the edge of the box, but still had some brood in them.

Bee Happy · June 19, 2009, 01:11:42 AM

nice snapper JP.
mine hang out "bearding" here's a pic of my favorite hive.
[img=http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/3428/nightbearding.th.jpg]

JP · June 19, 2009, 01:17:26 AM

Quote from: Ernest T. Bass on June 19, 2009, 01:10:00 AM
I pulled frames that were nearer to the edge of the box, but still had some brood in them.

You don't really need to do that though. You said you had two boxes on, one full, the other with 6-7 frames drawn and you added another box, which was a good move. They'll move up on their own with proper resources, no need to break up the brood nest.

...JP

Bee Happy · June 19, 2009, 01:21:24 AM

sorry for going off topic, I saw your movies Ernest, very clever stuff. good use of foreground and background imagery; camera angles for stunts and such. Haven't seen the newest one yet; but if those kids stay interested I can bet they'll go pro.

Ernest T. Bass · June 19, 2009, 01:43:45 AM

Thanks, Bee Happy! It can take some work to keep my sibs "interested".. :) We do have fun though. The latest movie isn't out yet; still waiting for our music, but it could be any day now.

JP, one of the reasons I put some drawn comb in the new foundationless box was to encourage them to draw on the guides. Is it unnecessary to do so? I also thought that opening up the brood would help prevent swarming due to backfilling.. Probably not a problem on my first year, but they are very active and I'm paranoid. :)

As far as my original question goes.. Is it possible that they have plenty of room inside and just choose to beard, or should I check on them asap?

JP · June 19, 2009, 02:02:06 AM

They have room to move up and they aren't honeybound because you have been giving them the room to move up. They become honeybound when they backfill the brood chamber for lack of room to store honey.

...JP

Ernest T. Bass · June 19, 2009, 02:08:21 AM

So, do you think it's physically possible for a two-month-old colony to fill the rest of that medium and the new one in a little over a week to the point of overcrowding?

JP · June 19, 2009, 09:37:54 AM

Quote from: Ernest T. Bass on June 19, 2009, 02:08:21 AM
So, do you think it's physically possible for a two-month-old colony to fill the rest of that medium and the new one in a little over a week to the point of overcrowding?

Yes, it is possible.

This hive http://picasaweb.google.com/pyxicephalus/May172008#5201542575531157314 was set up as a swarm April sometime last season. I checked them two weeks later, they were busting out of the one deep with eight frames fully drawn, I added two mediums and wound up adding a third, as they were beastly builders and harvesters.

I was able to harvest one full super from them within two and a half months time.

...JP

Ernest T. Bass · June 19, 2009, 12:07:26 PM

Okay, guess I'd better get some more foundationless boxes put together and go check! I keep reading that more experienced beeks don't need to interrupt their hives' activity by checking every week.. They just get away with it by stacking several empty boxes on at a time?

Thanks for the info!

jdpro5010 · June 19, 2009, 03:34:07 PM

If you are using foundationless frames it is a good idea to move up a drawn frame into the new box. This gives the bees a nice little ladder to help them get to the top of the frames to start building the wax down. The frame can just be any drawn frame from the outer edges of the lower boxes. It doesn't have to contain any brood. If it is pulled from the outer edges it will not disrupt the brood nest.

Ernest T. Bass · June 19, 2009, 04:47:16 PM

Thanks for that. I just finished inspecting them and sure enough, the top box was at least 60% full and the hives have lots of capped brood, so on went the fourth box. I think I would have put two on if I had them...

It's getting harder to inspect these hives at the rate their going! After seeing eggs I feel like putting the hive back together and leaving them alone, but I feel like I need to check all the frames for swarm cells... Is their any rule of thumb approx. which box the swarm cells will go in?

Brian D. Bray · June 20, 2009, 09:42:18 PM

The object of baiting a super is to draw the bees into the new super and eliviate crowding in the existing boxes.
It is okay to move up brood frames from the 1st brood box into what would be the 2nd brood box as long as those brood frames are located directly over the brood chamber in the lower box. Put the 2 empty frames replacing the 2 frames moved up on each side of the main brood chamber so it separates the storage frames from the brood frames. The bees will then draw the combs out as worker brood sized combs.
When supering for what may be harvestable supers, pull the storage frames (1 & 10 or 1 & 8) from the outside of the hive into the center of the hive with 1 or 2 empty frames between them. The stores will draw the bees up and the spacing allows the bees to begin working on new comb on all sides of the bait frames. The bait frames should be placed in the 2 & 9 or 2 & 7 position of possible but only if those frames were also storage frames. In other words, move any remaining storage frames to the outside and place the new frames between those storage frames and the brood frames if it is the 1st harvestable super being baited.
Baiting supers with frames from 1 harvestable super to another should follow the same pattern, mainly locating the bait frames near the center of the super, and positioning frames to control the comb size.
The outer most frames are usually only used for food storage and have large cells for such store, those cells can be too large for even drone comb. frames draw next to the brood chamber will most likely be drawn as brood sized combs. In reality, Storages combs can be of any size.

Ernest T. Bass · June 24, 2009, 12:55:06 AM

They're bearding again.. It's mid 70's and very humid, so I guess they just like hanging out. I plan on putting one more medium on this Thursday, whether they really need it or not.

One more question: Being packages, I'm not expecting a reproductive swarm, but I'm handling them as if they're established colonies since we had a lot of first-year swarms the last time we kept bees. However, even if they were established colonies, we're beyond reproductive swarm season, right? So, as long as I don't open the hives to find them packed to the brim, I shouldn't have to worry about a swarm? Like I said, I've inspected every frame every week so far, but it's getting a little ridiculous in the summer heat, even with two hives. :D Since they haven't run out of room (and assuming they aren't when I check 'em), am I safe in assuming that there are no impending swarms and I can just check for eggs?

Basic 101 here I'm sure, but I just want make sure I catch a swarm-bent hive, without going overboard..

Brian D. Bray · June 25, 2009, 12:09:25 AM

Quote from: Ernest T. Bass on June 24, 2009, 12:55:06 AM
They're bearding again.. It's mid 70's and very humid, so I guess they just like hanging out. I plan on putting one more medium on this Thursday, whether they really need it or not.

Good idea, more room can head off a swarm.

QuoteOne more question: Being packages, I'm not expecting a reproductive swarm, but I'm handling them as if they're established colonies since we had a lot of first-year swarms the last time we kept bees. However, even if they were established colonies, we're beyond reproductive swarm season, right?

No, a package is a manufactured swarm, treat it as such. A package can have all the trials and tribulations of a swarm. Swarms from packages or from early swarms are generally a result of overfeeding the bees, forcing them to become honey bound, or lack of timely supering, making them overcrowded with too many bees. I've seen reproductive swarms as late as Labor Day in my area. BTW, Every swarm is a reporductive swarm. Regardless of time of the season bees will turn to swarming when they are overcrowded from either population or honey stores (see honey bound).

QuoteSo, as long as I don't open the hives to find them packed to the brim, I shouldn't have to worry about a swarm?

If you don't super or continue to feed you'll still have swarms. See above comments.

QuoteLike I said, I've inspected every frame every week so far, but it's getting a little ridiculous in the summer heat, even with two hives. :D Since they haven't run out of room (and assuming they aren't when I check 'em), am I safe in assuming that there are no impending swarms and I can just check for eggs?

Basic 101 here I'm sure, but I just want make sure I catch a swarm-bent hive, without going overboard..

There is no such thing as a swarmless hive, even expert beekeepers are doing good if they can keep their hives from swarming 2 years out of 3. To avoid swarming you need to keep the brood chamber open (do a search here on the subject), super using the 80-20 rule, and not overfeed the bees. It is better to add too many supers than too few. Just within a period of 2 weeks bees can fill a single super with comb and honey and turn to swarm mode from overcrowding of stores (honey bound) or population. Once the bees start into swarm mode the only solutions are either to let them or control it with a split.

Bee Happy · June 25, 2009, 01:12:23 AM

Quote from: Ernest T. Bass on June 19, 2009, 02:08:21 AM
So, do you think it's physically possible for a two-month-old colony to fill the rest of that medium and the new one in a little over a week to the point of overcrowding?

I can't remember where I read it,(I think it was "The Classroom" by Jerry Hayes that a queen bee can lay 500 to 2000 eggs a day.
(2000 - not a typo - insanely amazing, but not a typo.)

Ernest T. Bass · June 25, 2009, 01:21:55 AM

Thanks for the info. I've read that an established colony that is doing well will attempt to swarm in the spring whether they have room or not, so that's what I mean by a reproductive swarm. Since these guys are not overfed and are not established and it's later in the season, it sounds like as long as they have room I should be out of the water.

I'm just trying to learn that intuition that tells you when you should inspect the whole hive for swarm cells, or not worry about it since the probability is low. I don't want to stress the hives (or me!) with overzealous inspecting, killing bees and endangering the queen, etc.

Ernest T. Bass · June 25, 2009, 04:22:56 PM

Well, I've got some interesting stuff to report after today's inspection.. Neither of the hives have used much of the medium super I put on last week. On the first hive, I noticed lots of drones.. There had been quite a few drones the last time I inspected, but I figured it was just the season. I'd say there was over 30-40% drones, and lots of drone comb. There were eggs, but not many. Then, I found a single queen cell on the bottom of a frame. There was larva in it, and nurse bees feeding. Supercedure cell in a swarm cell location (bottom of frame)?

The second hive was doing much better in the drone department. I'd say 5% or so. Lots of capped worker cells, and a fair amount of eggs and open comb. However, they had two queen cells on one frame (one on the bottom of the frame, and one on the top), and one on another frame! This was surprising, because it appears that the queen was doing well? Unless they are swarm cells, but there is plenty of room in the hive and I wouldn't say they are honeybound.

Help? :) I decided not to do anything rash and see what you guys think. Are they supercedure or should I attempt a split? Thanks!

Brian D. Bray · June 26, 2009, 01:43:14 AM

Some preswarming signs are a high volume of drone production as well as an increase in the normal (for the hive) brood chamber and the creation of burr comb.
I went into one hive Tuesday that had 16 out of 16 frames (2 mediums) mostly full of brood. There was a total drone comb that would equal 2 full frames, lots of drones in the hive, and they were building queen cells on one frame.
I did a walk away split using the frame with queen cells. I took 4 frames of brood/bees from that hive and 1 frameeach from 2 other hives. I then broke up the brood chamber with empty frames (foundationless) and added a super because with the amount of brood in that hive that was preparing to swarm it would have filled more than another super with just bees so the super and the split made room for the bees and room to build comb. I'll have to check in a week to see if the hive makes more queen cells.