Supercedure cells? Leave or not?

Ernest T. Bass · June 25, 2009, 09:03:41 PM

I posted this on my other thread, but decided it was time to make a split... :roll: ...and start a new thread. Plus, I kinda need advice fast now.. ;)

First off, these are package bees, two hives installed in April. They haven't been overfed or under-spaced, yet I've got queen cells.. read on:
Well, I've got some interesting stuff to report after today's inspection.. Neither of the hives have used much of the medium super I put on last week. On the first hive, I noticed lots of drones.. There had been quite a few drones the last time I inspected, but I figured it was just the season. I'd say there was over 30-40% drones, and lots of drone comb. There were eggs, but not many. Then, I found a single queen cell on the bottom of a frame. There was larva in it, and nurse bees feeding. Supercedure cell in a swarm cell location (bottom of frame)?

The second hive was doing much better in the drone department. I'd say 5% or so. Lots of capped worker cells, and a fair amount of eggs and open comb. However, they had two queen cells on one frame (one on the bottom of the frame, and one on the top), and one on another frame! This was surprising, because it appears that the queen was doing well? Unless they are swarm cells, but there is plenty of room in the hive and I wouldn't say they are honeybound.

Help? :) I decided not to do anything rash and see what you guys think. I figured since they were still open I had a few days. Are they supercedure or should I attempt a split? Thanks!

Oh, one more unrelated question.. I noticed a good handful of dead bees under my slatted rack, over the sbb. I have a top entrance, and it seems like the nurse bees aren't bothering to clean up.. Is this normal? I dumped 'em out--not sure if they are a good thing to have around the hive..

iddee · June 25, 2009, 11:28:22 PM

If the queen cells in the better hive are capped, I would move the frame with one on it into the weak hive. The queen cell in the weak hive may be from a drone larva. "Yes, they will do that".
It won't matter, tho, if it is still open and you install a capped one from the good hive. The capped one will emerge first and destroy the other one.

PS. I have never purposely destroyed a queen cell for any reason.

Ernest T. Bass · June 25, 2009, 11:59:16 PM

They are all open right now, as far as I know.. So you think they are supercedure cells instead of swarm cells, even if they are on the bottom of the frame? Because it doesn't seem like you would want to remove swarm cells, lest they swarm anyway and leave no queen behind..

iddee · June 26, 2009, 12:37:55 AM

I said move the frame with one cell, leaving the frame with two cells. That would leave both hives with cells from the strong hive, insuring the cell was a queen and not a drone.

Ernest T. Bass · June 26, 2009, 12:50:37 AM

Ah, I see. So are you thinking these are supersedure or swarm cells? Like I said, the frame with two has one on the bottom, and one on the top.. Don't swarm cells usually come in larger quantities? Unless they are planning on building more...

TwT · June 26, 2009, 01:31:33 AM

also, go in the good hive with the cells and look for the queen, if you still see eggs and young brood she is still there and you can take the frame she is on with bee's (as long as the frame doesn't have any cells) plus a couple more brood frames with bee's and you got another split. take a few honey frames also. if she is laying good I see no reason to lose her, this year bee's are doing crazy things with queens, replacing for no reason, killing them after a week or 2 in the hive and starting cells. just been a weird year, the old saying is bee's know best but this year they crazy because I seen one of my hives building cells and the queen was a month old and they had plenty of room, so I took her and a couple frames with her and made a nuc, its a 2 deep hive now and full of bee's, some times give her a chance.

Ernest T. Bass · June 26, 2009, 01:47:30 AM

Sounds like a plan.. I'm not sure I'll be able to find her, though. I inspect pretty carefully but only found her once this year.

Should the split go into a nuc of some sort, or just another foundationless medium and let them start building from there?

TwT · June 26, 2009, 01:59:28 AM

you can put them in a nuc if you have one until they get built up in numbers good, remember to feed if you dont have a flow going so they can draw out frames, if one of your new queens doesn't do to good you can combine the nuc to that hive. she's in there just dont smoke them much, that tends to make some queens get off the frames and run on the hive wall or bottom board, look closely at each frame and you can find her.

Ernest T. Bass · June 26, 2009, 02:06:10 AM

There's a good flow going now... How do you know when to move a nuc to a bigger hive when you're filling it up with drawn and worked comb to begin with?

I've got some extra medium boxes I could divide down the center to make two 5-frame nucs.. Would holes in the boxes make better nuc entrances so that the bees don't fight on the bottom board (in the event that the double-nuc ever actually houses two colonies)?

TwT · June 26, 2009, 02:10:55 AM

if there is a flow going on then only move the queen on a frame of brood /with bee's and a second frame of brood with bee's, a frame of honey with bee's and 2 frames of foundation. the other way would be if your flow was over and more bee's would help the build up before fall.

TwT · June 26, 2009, 02:15:40 AM

on the medium being made into 2 five framers, sure you can and the hole would be the only entrances you use unless a modified top entrance some how, I turned a 10 frame deep into 3-three frame nucs, bottom nailed solid and hole on 3 different sides, the trick is the inter covers for each section, some might not do that but I did so I could work each nuc with out bothering the others, and use 1 top cover.

Brian D. Bray · June 26, 2009, 03:31:40 AM

I build my nucs double stacked (10 frames) before I transfer them over into 8 frame mediums I then put 5 frames into each medium box when I change them over from the nuc boxes. If you're using 10 frame equipment you can either put all 10 frames in one box or put 8 in the bottom box and use 2 for bait frames in the upper box.

Ernest T. Bass · June 26, 2009, 09:12:35 AM

Quote from: Brian D. Bray on June 26, 2009, 03:31:40 AM
I build my nucs double stacked (10 frames) before I transfer them over into 8 frame mediums I then put 5 frames into each medium box when I change them over from the nuc boxes. If you're using 10 frame equipment you can either put all 10 frames in one box or put 8 in the bottom box and use 2 for bait frames in the upper box.

What's the advantage of giving them 5 empty frames above them versus 5 empty frames to the side if they were transferred into a 10 frame box?

TwT, do the inner covers on a nuc have to be spaced (shimmed) above the frames to allow for bee travel as in a regular inner cover?

TwT · June 26, 2009, 09:25:46 AM

Quote from: Ernest T. Bass on June 26, 2009, 09:12:35 AM
TwT, do the inner covers on a nuc have to be spaced (shimmed) above the frames to allow for bee travel as in a regular inner cover?

the way I built mine was the boards that divided the nucs came above the hive body 1/4 inch, so for inter cover's I use 1/4 plywood so it was the same across top

Ernest T. Bass · June 26, 2009, 09:30:43 AM

So the inner covers are sitting between the spacers, but directly on top of the box. Do the bees have enough room to move on top of the frames (or do they need to)? All of the inner covers I've seen have a spacer around the edge.

TwT · June 26, 2009, 09:36:12 AM

think of it this way, a migratory cover just sits on top, I never had any problems, the thing you need to do is fine that queen, when inspecting frames I take frames out and lean against the hive body, just keep going over the frames until you find her.

iddee · June 26, 2009, 10:12:30 AM

The spacer on the inner cover goes on top to give the bees access to the area between the inner and outer covers. Without it, the ants and others can set up housekeeping there and the bees can't protect it.

Ernest T. Bass · June 26, 2009, 11:33:51 AM

Gotcha. As far as doing a really thorough inspection to find the queen, how about taking an empty medium box and transferring the frames out of the top medium one at a time into it. After the hive's top box is empty, move it to the ground and do the same thing with the next box, and so on. Would that reduce the chance of her jumping between boxes as I take the hive down, or hiding on the edge of a box?

Thanks a bunch for all the help guys! I've got to run out and make a nuc...

Since the cells were still open yesterday, am I better off waiting another day to make sure the cells are capped before making the split and moving that one cell to the other hive?

iddee · June 26, 2009, 01:29:12 PM

I don't know how others do it, but I would wait until they were capped. Also, don't shake a frame with a queen cell on it. If you dislodge the larva, it is likely to die.

Ernest T. Bass · June 26, 2009, 01:32:23 PM

Okay.. It was difficult to see into the queen cells, but it didn't look live the larva was very developed. Should I wait two or three days?

One more thing I thought of.. There is very little capped honey in my hives, but lots of frames of curing nectar. Would one of those frames work as nuc food instead of a frame of honey?

EDIT: One more thing.. (Sorry if I'm getting kind of obnoxious here..) When I move a queen cell from the better hive to the drony hive, should I remove the cell in the drony hive so that queen doesn't emerge first and kill the other one?