Need advice on a hot hive

Flyin Brian · July 20, 2016, 02:51:45 AM

One of the longtime members and elders at our bee club is selling a hive and I negotiated the purchase. It's one he hasn't taken care of due to his failing health and the location is away at a remote sight. They have lasted 6 years at their current location, so it is definitely a good survivor colony.

I went there today and removed the honey super so it is just 2 deeps. The problem is these bees are CRANKY! It's the most irritated and defensive hive I've ever worked with. They were hitting our heads and bumping my hands the entire time I was there. They followed back to the truck that was on the opposite side of the property even.

I wanted to move them to my son's house but there is no way I could leave these girls there without requeening. Unfortunately I'm not able to requeen before I move them, so I'm working on finding a remote place to take them and I think I found it. The seller of the hive wants them moved asap, and doesn't want me requeening there, as it is a neighborhood where things would be a mess if they went sideways.

Ok so now I'm wondering... if I take them to a remote place but still have good resources for them, maybe I should just leave the current queen and let them bee?

I understand they may not make as much honey if I change to another queen... I guess I'm just trying to figure out what my options are and what the best plan would be.

So far I either bring them home and immediately requeen, or I take them to a remote ranch and either leave them alone or requeen and possibly move them back here?

Thanks

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little john · July 20, 2016, 06:31:48 AM

Sounds as if whatever decision you finally reach involves finding a remote site - so if it were me, I'd firm-up the acquisition of that site, and move the hive there. THEN you can decide what strategy to adopt.

I don't understand why you think re-queening may result in lower honey yields - is this one particularly spectacular in this regard ?

There is a widely-held view that prolific colonies will be aggressive and/or over-defensive - as if these two features will always co-exist. This view has evolved from the observation that aggressive colonies are invariably prolific.

Now prolific colonies have derived that characteristic from being mongrelised - and indeed, mongrelised colonies can certainly be aggressive/over-defensive - but the one does not automatically lead to the other. Which can be shown by the large numbers of prolific mongrelised colonies around which are NOT aggressive/over-defensive.

Mongrelisation > Aggressive/Defensive (AND Prolific)
Mongrelisation > Prolific

The mistake which is frequently made is one of confusing cause and effect.

LJ

GSF · July 20, 2016, 08:22:46 AM

Brian, where you at? It helps to put your general location in your profile since most questions are location specific. I have a colony that won't bother you until you open the hive. Then it a couple days later and they are still after anything they see moving, like my neighbor a couple hundred yards away. I may have pulled 5 frames of honey off of them, she's on her way out. Another hive that was about as aggressive calmed down and made the heck out of honey. Then there's the gentle bees I have that made a lot of honey.

Acebird · July 20, 2016, 08:28:54 AM

LJ, don't you think a colony with lots of honey is naturally more aggressive. This is my experience. In the spring when the colony is the smallest and has the least amount of honey to protect they are cream puffs. Right about now when the supers are full and the nectar starts to dwindle they will get more defensive. The OP took the honey off. I think that would rile them up a bit especially in a area that doesn't have a strong flow. I feel he shouldn't have done that until he was ready to move them.

little john · July 20, 2016, 08:58:28 AM

Quote from: Acebird on July 20, 2016, 08:28:54 AM
LJ, don't you think a colony with lots of honey is naturally more aggressive. This is my experience. In the spring when the colony is the smallest and has the least amount of honey to protect they are cream puffs.

I think what you may be describing there is a relationship between colony size and aggression, rather than the amount of honey and aggression. I believe it's generally accepted that small colonies are less aggressive than large ones - certainly that's been my experience with Nucs. At 5-frame size they're a joy to work with, but then they grow ... and can sometimes turn nasty.

Which is causing me no end of problems with Nuc sales - for the last thing I want to do is sell apparently well-behaved colonies which will then turn 'hot' at a later date. But short of raising each colony to full-size before down-sizing it into a saleable nuc (which isn't very practical) - I don't have any clear idea right now of how to deal with this.
LJ

sc-bee · July 20, 2016, 09:27:54 AM

You stated a five year survivor colony was your interest. By requeening are you not loosing the very reason you bought it... or at least part of the reason? After all. leaving the area the DCA will be different also.

And it may have been mentioned already, but time of year can add to the defensiveness..

Flyin Brian · July 20, 2016, 10:58:04 AM

Quote from: little john on July 20, 2016, 06:31:48 AM

Sounds as if whatever decision you finally reach involves finding a remote site - so if it were me, I'd firm-up the acquisition of that site, and move the hive there. THEN you can decide what strategy to adopt.

I don't understand why you think re-queening may result in lower honey yields - is this one particularly spectacular in this regard ?

There is a widely-held view that prolific colonies will be aggressive and/or over-defensive - as if these two features will always co-exist. This view has evolved from the observation that aggressive colonies are invariably prolific.

Now prolific colonies have derived that characteristic from being mongrelised - and indeed, mongrelised colonies can certainly be aggressive/over-defensive - but the one does not automatically lead to the other. Which can be shown by the large numbers of prolific mongrelised colonies around which are NOT aggressive/over-defensive.

Mongrelisation > Aggressive/Defensive (AND Prolific)
Mongrelisation > Prolific

The mistake which is frequently made is one of confusing cause and effect.

LJ

I think I have the remote site taken care of now, so I'm going to move them there for now.

I wasnt trying to connect defensiveness with production, just acknowledging they may not produce as much if requeened. According to the owner they have been superior producers compared to his other hives at this location. He is selling this one only because it is his final set of deep boxes.

Quote from: sc-bee on July 20, 2016, 09:27:54 AM
You stated a five year survivor colony was your interest. By requeening are you not loosing the very reason you bought it... or at least part of the reason? After all. leaving the area the DCA will be different also.

And it may have been mentioned already, but time of year can add to the defensiveness..

This is the dilemma I am facing. I'm just trying to consider all the variables and figure out the best move.

I am thinking if I can get them moved to the new spot that is remote then I have no reason to hurry on the requeening. I will probably wait and see how they perform there.

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Flyin Brian · July 20, 2016, 10:59:00 AM

Quote from: GSF on July 20, 2016, 08:22:46 AM
Brian, where you at? It helps to put your general location in your profile since most questions are location specific. I have a colony that won't bother you until you open the hive. Then it a couple days later and they are still after anything they see moving, like my neighbor a couple hundred yards away. I may have pulled 5 frames of honey off of them, she's on her way out. Another hive that was about as aggressive calmed down and made the heck out of honey. Then there's the gentle bees I have that made a lot of honey.

I'm in northern California. I will try to add that on my profile, thanks :)

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Oldbeavo · July 20, 2016, 07:05:17 PM

If you requeen this hive you will completely lose all the genetics that makes this hive prolific and a survivor. To requeen you are only buying a group of bees and not a superior hive.
To remove the queen and add a queen cell you are adding only half the genetics of the progeny and maybe the new bees may be quieter, but if you shift the hive before doing this, depending how far you shift, you are dealing with a new set of drones in the new DCA.

Acebird · July 20, 2016, 07:52:56 PM

My sister lives in Davis, is that northern? She says it is. She did not like honey until she had mine. Now she can't get enough of it.
You the beekeeper has to decide if these are the bees you want. If you requeen you essentially have a package of unknown traits. That may be the right choice but you must understand what you are doing. Do you want them or are you looking for a free package?

Wombat2 · July 20, 2016, 08:05:07 PM

I feel you pain. I have 3 docile hives and one "Agro" hive. I have been told several times to re-queen but as per comments it was a good producer - so I thought - looking back at the figures there is little difference between all 4. Anyway toward the end of last year and early this year they improved and last two intrusions into the hive there were no stings - even after dropping a box and it rolling down the hill!! Yesterday 27 stings !!!! DEFINATELY Re-queening in now.

Colobee · July 21, 2016, 07:38:16 AM

I've had both aggressive and docile bees produce large quantities of honey. Right now I have nothing but great producing docile hives. I snuff out the first hint of aggression.

Moving that hive to a new location is just as likely to affect honey production, one way or the other. Perhaps make up a couple splits with some good queens, and leave the old one in another? That will give you more options if & when the time comes. Wooten's Goldens are in N. Cali. I found them to be even tempered & good producers.

buzzbee · July 21, 2016, 09:03:43 AM

One issue not brought up, is something bothering these hives? Perhaps nocturnal's such as a skunk or something? This can keep hives in a foul mood if left in that situation.

little john · July 21, 2016, 10:02:39 AM

Re-queening by squishing the queen and allowing one or more Queen-Cells to develop from her eggs will ensure that the present Queen's DNA continues.

Removal of the colony to a new location will indeed involve drones from a new DCA - but this will happen anyway following the colony's relocation, when it comes time for the next Virgin Queen of that colony to be mated. You can't preserve the status quo for ever.

By re-queening now - using the existing Queen's DNA - you would simply be doing what will be happening anyway (whether you like it or not) in a couple of year's time.

LJ

bwallace23350 · July 21, 2016, 10:30:01 AM

I am not a very experienced beekeeper as this is my first year but I would just keep the hive as is and invest in a really good bee suit. In my ultrabreeze I have not been stung yet and from what I have read neither has practically anyone. Just suite up and enjoy a strong healthy hive without treating them.

little john · July 21, 2016, 11:49:39 AM

Quote from: bwallace23350 on July 21, 2016, 10:30:01 AM
I am not a very experienced beekeeper as this is my first year but I would just keep the hive as is and invest in a really good bee suit. In my ultrabreeze I have not been stung yet and from what I have read neither has practically anyone. Just suite up and enjoy a strong healthy hive without treating them.

QuoteIt's the most irritated and defensive hive I've ever worked with. They were hitting our heads and bumping my hands the entire time I was there. They followed back to the truck that was on the opposite side of the property even.

'Following' is generally considered to be a most undesirable characteristic in honey bee colonies - and not one sign of a strong healthy colony.

"I mark fairly heavily against this activity on the record sheet and will re-queen such colonies at the earliest opportunity." http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/following.html As do I.

You may find http://www.bbka.org.uk/members/forum.php?t=5271 an interesting read.

LJ

Flyin Brian · July 21, 2016, 01:16:16 PM

Quote from: Acebird on July 20, 2016, 07:52:56 PM
My sister lives in Davis, is that northern? She says it is. She did not like honey until she had mine. Now she can't get enough of it.
You the beekeeper has to decide if these are the bees you want. If you requeen you essentially have a package of unknown traits. That may be the right choice but you must understand what you are doing. Do you want them or are you looking for a free package?

I'm just looking to expand a little. I have 4 hives at home and I'm hoping to get up to around 10 by next year, which means I have to start looking at other locations as I am maxed out here.

I think I will move them as is, and see how they work out at the new spot. I can always split and requeen at a later date if I am not happy with the results.

Flyin Brian · July 21, 2016, 01:19:56 PM

Quote from: buzzbee on July 21, 2016, 09:03:43 AM
One issue not brought up, is something bothering these hives? Perhaps nocturnal's such as a skunk or something? This can keep hives in a foul mood if left in that situation.

That's entirely possible. They are in a yard at a commercial business, so there is not someone there to monitor the property at night, so we would only know of something bothersome if they actually did some damage.

Flyin Brian · July 25, 2016, 12:33:34 PM

Well I moved the hive last night. I showed up at 8pm and as we pulled into the yard there was a skunk standing there by the fence. We parked and he walked within 10 feet of us and went back and forth along the fence line before going into hole in the fence.
So it sounds like buzz bee could have it right... I am hoping maybe they will calm down a bit now that they are in the new spot and away from that skunk. Of course there may be other pests at the new spot, I will just have to wait and see.

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BeeMaster2 · July 25, 2016, 01:15:21 PM

Brian,
Since you have skunks in your area, just raise the hive up a little to make the skunk raise his belly off the ground while he is bothering the hive. It is his weak spot and the bees know how to teach him a lesson.
Jim