Adding a brood chamber UNDER the existing brood box

[Ben Framed]

Let me add, in spite of this honest effort, I still had bees in the trees! Up till the present. 9 known swarms here at my home yard of 20.  8 recovered.  2 at my other yard of 15. Both recovered! I am not blaming the method for the swarms by my lack of closer attention to the hives. I have learned that I should have checked every week or so this time of year instead of relaxing and assuming all the added space was sufficient.


Phillip Hall

[Ben Framed]

> The brood nest is for raising bees, not making wax. Avoid putting foundation in the brood boxes.  By putting only drawn frames in the brood nest and keeping the core integrity together you will be rewarded with well organized nests and much much faster buildouts.
The honey stores is the place for making wax, building and filling storage space.  Storage is on the outside of the nest, edges of the box, or up in supers. Draw the foundation outside the nest core do any checkboard in the supers.  Move freshly drawn frames down into the brood box near the nest when and where needed.

Thank you for that explanation. I will not argue with a man of your experience and knowledge. And I do so appreciate you taking the time to educate even me. Gods Blessings. 

PS  if a picture says a thousand words, your picture standing by the stack of honey supers say it all!!  A person can not help the bees make that much honey by accident! I liked that picture on your Name Plate. Very impressive.

Phillip Hall

[Acebird]

I still do not know what would be the disadvantage to checkerboarding. This time of year?

Phillip

Details matter... If there are not enough bees to work the expanded space it could set back the hive.  If you try to force the bees to expand when they are not capable you will find them in the trees and not necessarily where you can get them back.  They may also die due to something they are battling, SHB, varroa.

[TheHoneyPump]

You may have missed a piece of math in your expansion efforts, Ben.   That is: 1 frame of capped brood yields 3 frames of walking/working bees in 1 week.
Eg:  a 10 frame box with 5 frames of brood.  What does that math say.  ..... 15 frames of bees on order and shipped, and those are in ADDITION to the bees that are already in the box.  Or two 10 frames boxes with 8+ frames of brood ..... 30 frames of more bees on order and shipped.
How many frames of bees are already in the box?  Where are the 3xF added bees going to go when the brood emerges?  ... To the trees and eaves of course.

Swarm management involves weekly inspection, counting and doing some math:
- The queen and nurse bees in the core nest need the 3 frames free described, per week.
- The field bees and house bees need an ..additional.. 3 to 4 frames of workspace for every frame of brood seen in the nest core. On a heavy nectar flow they need 5 to 8 frames of space per brood frame. Pending on your region and conditions.  (Folks in SHB areas may caution to run them tighter).
- Stay ahead of them. Make the workspace adjustments and manipulations 2 to 3 weeks before they actually need it.
The beekeeper has choice of three actions to take with expanding colonies.  Let them swarm.  Add enough space to the hive at the right time.  Or split them into whole separate space(s); more hives.

For a practical real world, example:
- A 10 frame hive in spring build-up mode
- Cluster size in early morning or late evening is 8 frames of bees in the box
- The nest core has 5 frames of brood all stages

The manipulation and addition to do in this case:
   8 frames of bees + 3x5 frames of bees coming = 23 frames of beespace is needed by this hive to house the bees.  This hive needs to be expanded into two boxes in less than one week or it will go into swarm mode.  23 frames do not fit into 2 boxes.  However, a foundation frame creates a lot of work and can be counted as 2 frames.
The action to take with this hive is to add a box and at least 3 of the frames would be foundation. The hive will be 2 boxes high when done. If the weather is warm a heavy flow is on, I would not bat an eye at giving this hive 3 boxes to work with. (Folks in SHB areas may disagree with this 3rd of storage space.) - it depends -
Remember what is done to the hive today isn't about the hive today, it is about the hive next week.  This hive would be reconfigured as follows. May be some variation based on what resources (H/P/B) are in the hive at the time:
.... 2nd box:    HFEEBBEHFH
.... Bottom box:  PPEBBBEPFP
optional, warm and heavy flow only
.... 3rd box, above queen excluder:
HFEFEFEFHH
With that setup, check again in a week.  The beekeeper should not have to do anything more for 2 weeks, but to continue to check weekly to see they are comfortable in the space, healthy, and continue on an upwards projected path.  At the 3rd week, split the hive or add more space for housing more bees and storing the mass of honey about to come in as the foragers mature and hit the flowers.

With experience you learn to assess and act on these on the fly without getting out a calculator or having to do much head scratching.  Though if ever unsure of what to do, then take a moment to count multiply and add to figure out what the bees are telling you they need you to do today so they can continue to be happy next week.

And with that, ad nauseam, I shall stop and exit stage left.. Have a great weekend everyone!

[Ben Framed]

Thanks, I learned this by not doing  the math bt by the school of hard knocks! Lol  yes Every week foward next spring.  I suppose I could have made splits but the weather was a little iffie as cool was still in the air. We live and learn. 

Phillip

[Ben Framed]

@ Mr Hp
The conversation leads me to other thoughts . Perhaps it is time for me to look more  seriously into Michale Palmers methods of a Sustainable Apiary. I will need a lot of queens to make the proper splits next season at the precise time to accommodate all the splits and keep them moving forward.  I had  better check out that video once again.   Thank you Mr Hp

Phillip Hall

[Seeb]

Our role as beekeepers is to facilitate and nurture.  Not to create hurdles, barriers, and more work.  That means working with the bees natural ways of doing things and making those things easier for them.

Remember what is done to the hive today isn't about the hive today, it is about the hive next week

Very through answers HP, I will have to reread a hundred times over to comprehend all that's been said here, but that's good. Thanks for turning my thinking in this direction.

[Nock]

Great info in this thread.

[sc-bee]

Both you fellas are correct.  The original term CHECKERBOARDING was applied as Jim stated.  Purpose to increase honey yield and prevent swarming and broodcomb was untouched as in original term.

However Man and Tim use the exact word CHECKERBOARDING to increase brood yields and prevent swarming.  Would have been less confusing if the word ALTERNATE brood comb was used.  However the term CHECKERBOARDING was used for brood.

So, one term, two different meaning.  Us old timers think of the original term checkerboard as arranging honey combs only as Jim pointed out.  FatBeeMan and Durham have a large audience from YouTube videos so the term is out there, two meaning.

Thank you once again Mr Van. I am still learning. (And boy am I! It is seems the more I learn let less I know! lol).  I appreciate your and Jims guidance.

Phillip Hall

Come on Ben Framed, I have been gone a while but you have been around a while. I know you knew Checkerboarding (Cbing- by Walt Wright) was moving honey frames only, as much as I hammered that in
See the sticky section...........

https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=43892.0

And this one:

https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=49041.msg426398#msg426398

[Ben Framed]

>Come on Ben Framed, I have been gone a while but you have been around a while. I know you knew Checkerboarding (Cbing- by Walt Wright) was moving honey frames only, as much as I hammered that in

I've been around two years and admit I do not know a diddley of what you know. But I am trying. lol
I have great respect for you and others here, and very much appreciate your answers. The last thing that I would wish do is insult one of my teachers here. One thing that almost every experienced beekeeper says here, in beekeeping there is more than one way to do get things accomplished.

I do not know if this is one those ways but, this fellow has also been around a long time, a lifetime of beekeeping, and also a professional making his living by bees.  He does it a little different and it works for him. In fact he is so confident, he teaches this. I am not taking sides nor intending offend, or to pit one of my friends here against another. I am however looking at things with an open mind. Learning from you lifetimers and others as well. Hoping not to offend any of you. And especially hoping to avoid a catastrophe. lol
I will post the video and show an alternative way of checkerboarding with brood. Maybe one of you old dogs can learn from another?  Just Kidding  lol 
Thanks for you input SC.

Phillip Hall


https://youtu.be/0XABXPyQ2rg

[sc-bee]

Not offending me brother  Yep the confusion comes with the terminology. WW started by calling his system Nectar Management. Folks coined it checkerboarding or Cbing and some of the battle began.
Stuff/comments like "I have been checkerboarding for decades WW didn't come up with this" Well they were moving brood frames and WW was ONLY moving honey frames. Along with the arguments came the confusion between the two manipulations.

Both are valuable and have a use. Oh and "I've been around two years and admit I do not know a dribble of what you know" .... I know just enough not to know much of nothing

[Ben Framed]

Not offending me brother  Yep the confusion comes with the terminology. WW started by calling his system Nectar Management. Folks coined it checkerboarding or Cbing and some of he battle began.
Stuff/comments like "I have been checkerboarding for decades WW didn't come up with this" Well they were moving brood frames and WW was ONLY moving honey frames. Along with the arguments came the confusion between the two manipulations.

Both are valuable and have a use.

> I know just enough not to know much of nothing

And let me add on to your add on, I do know you know more than nothing.   Your Being too modest! lol

Thanks for you input and teaching, It means alot to me.

Phillip Hall

[FloridaGardener]

I agree with SC that the terms have been inconsistently used.

What I've heard for terms: Beekeeper may PYRAMID the brood when the bottom chamber is packed, and it seems as if the bees think there is a glass ceiling. 
       Pyramiding is taking ONLY the two outermost brood frames and centering them above the lower brood nest, to encourage the queen to "chimney" upward. Then the pollen frames on the outside of the brood nest are tightened into those vacant spaces, and empty frames are placed on the outside edges of the lower box.
        Corrections accepted to this this technique.

"Checkerboarding" is spacing honey frames apart above a QX, as already described in this thread.

Re: Youtube videos. IMHO, anybody can turn on a phone camera and make a youtube video...not always trustworthy, and usually about 20 minutes too long.  By contrast, a forum has checks and balances, and typically is pooled knowledge.  Of course, that's my opinion. No heckling me on that opinion, please.

[Ben Framed]

>IMHO, anybody can turn on a phone camera and make a youtube video...not always trustworthy, and usually about 20 minutes too long.

Thank for your input. No heckling here but in defence of the video maker; He has been a beekeeper for a lifetime, (and he is no teeager lol), nor is he a Johnie come lately that just picked up a camera and made a video. As I said earlier, It is not my intention to pit one beekeeper against another. One teacher against another. I was finished with the conversation when Mr HP chimed in with his wise input, until SC chimed in with his kind suggestion toward me. I was simply showing there may be other ways to skin this cat. Open Mindedness is not always a bad thing if one is very careful where he is getting the views from. No two experts always see things exactly the same in every situation. Do you agree?

Phillip Hall

[FloridaGardener]

Hey! You couldn't resist heckling.

Don't think of a white polar bear.

[Ben Framed]

Hey! You couldn't resist.

Don't think of a white polar bear.

I will always defend the good intentioned innocent; Such as the man in the video. I would do the same for you as long as I knew your intentions were honorable and innocent. You should know me by now.  lol
I like white polar bears, Coca-Cola used them for years in their advertisements. My grandmother had a small collection in her home.
I suppose I must get set to defend the Coca Cola Company now?   

Phillip Hall

[Ben Framed]

Hey! You couldn't resist heckling.

Don't think of a white polar bear.

Hum I see you changed your post again, via editing by accusing me of heckling. Telling the truth and defending the innocent is never heckling. As I said, I would defend you just the same If you were attacked and I knew your intentions were honorable and innocent. So who is the heckler and the attacker? Its ok as I forgive you.  lol

Chill out Florida. This is following is just for your fun and a smile. Along with a outstretched hand in friendship. I hope you can take it that way. 

Phillip Hall

https://youtu.be/TZHRtZpAyCg

[TheHoneyPump]

I missed something somewhere.  Was there a switchback, was there a J-hook in the road somewhere?
why Ben, .... Ben why ... WHYYYYY!!?  Why did a FBM video have to show up here, on this topic?
(But even more important which I need to reconcile only myself to is ... why ... why WHYYYY? Did I spend time watching some of it?)

He has some good stuff. Generally interesting and helpful on many topics.  However, that video for this topic and this thread isn't one of them. Working half filled nucs vs working full hives with different end goals require different methods.  I thought we were discussing an expanding hive.
.

[FloridaGardener]

Thank you.

      And ...I?d like to hear 2 cents from the professionals on this: Which position to place a frame of capped brood robbed from another hive, to boost a wimpy brood nest in one hive body? Center? Just at the edge?
Center seems disruptive, but then, when the capped brood hatches it?s ready for the next cycle.  And it wouldn?t change the ellipse shape.

[Ben Framed]

I wish to thank you also. As I thought anyone who read the above, starting with SC first post, could plainly understand the situation. Since that is not the case I will attempt to explain being you have given me the opportunity.

There was no switch back. I was finished with it as I told FG until Steve kindly reprimanded me for bringing it up in the first place. I answered Steve showing him where I originally got the information. I explained that some old timers do checkerboard the brood chamber. I was kind, respectful, curious, and attempted to be fluent, with my explanation and why I posed the video in my defense.... Of Steves reprimand toward me. Showing and telling where I heard this in the beginning and why I brought it up in the first place. I thought that was the way it was done. Again until you explained to me differently.

Again, I figured that was the end of it and was as far as I was concerned (once again) About that time FG added his comment about the matter which is more than fine with me. His opinion on the matter is just as important as anyone else's here.

But where the confusion came in as far as I am concerned,,, I will quote. FG
(Re: Youtube videos. IMHO, anybody can turn on a phone camera and make a youtube video...not always trustworthy, and usually about 20 minutes too long.  By contrast, a forum has checks and balances, and typically is pooled knowledge.  Of course, that's my opinion. No heckling me on that opinion, please.

What he said is absolutely true in some cases and Though I may no longer agree with the older gentleman,  I took up for the old gentleman. Explaining he was no Johnie come lately YouTuber and a lifetime professional bee man. In my opinion the older gentleman deserved more respect than was given. Even if FG SC or anyone else including myself does not agree with him.  I politely  answered FG. Again, making sure I was polite, kind, courteous and respectful. Hoping to find a mutual ground that FG and I could stand on. The rest is history. Read it for your self.
Let me add once more in MY DEFENSE,  FBM was not working a nuc. He was working an eight frame hive. For what it is worth lol.

Phillip Hall