OK dear people, I am confused and worried at this point!!!

[annette]

OK I moved my hive Tuesday evening. I wrote about this in another post. All seemed well except today there was a frenzy of bees everywhere and I did take a good look and did not see any fighting on the landing board or the ground. So I felt sure it wasn't a robbing situation.

Well I just drove up there about 1 hour ago (about 0700PM my time) and the frenzy continues and I found bees everywhere. Clustered on the ground, under the hive, on the side of the hive. A rather large cluster about 4 feet in back of the hive on the ground. I checked on this  cluster because I wanted to make sure the queen had not gotten out or something. The cluster actually had gotten a bit smaller by the time I got my suit on. I moved the bees around and it was just a lot of nervous looking bees.

What is going on?? There aren't any dead bees on the ground and the landing board is empty of bees. Just a few foragers going in and out. I peeked under the cover really quickly and it is full of bees.

Did they get lost or something????  Will they drift into the hive tonight??

I hope this wasn't a robbing situation and I did not understand this. But if it was a robbing situation, why would so many bees just be hanging around looking confused????

Any info would be appreciated, as I am feeling worried tonight.

Thank you
Annettte

[Bill W.]

Could they have swarmed and returned?  I had a hive do that and it looked similar to what you describe.

[Dane Bramage]

Hi Annette,

I think short moves are more difficult than long one precisely because of the re-orientation.  I don't care how much crap you pile up in front of the entrances, once the bees are out and flying, using the sun and who knows whatever landmarks, etc., to navigate, they come back to where the hive used to be.  With a longer-distance move, they don't have that option.

I moved several (~10?) of my hives a short distance... I knew it would be a hassle but it was unavoidable.  Due to the number of hives I had enough stragglers (or whatever one calls those that would not re-orient to the new hive locale) that they ended up forming a pretty decent sized cluster.  It almost seemed like a swarm, but it wasn't.  I actually ended up hiving it and throwing in a few frames of eggs/larvae, they raised their own queen and are doing quite well now.

So, back to your issue.  The clustering, etc., around the hive sounds unique in my short-move experience.  Are there a bunch still flying around the old location?  I'd also verify and take extra precaution to prevent robbing.  If the hive is a bit disoriented from the move and other hive's foragers just think a new cured-honey source showed up, you might not see the typical defensive behaviour.  Reduce that entrance, open up and see if there's a lot of recent uncapping, etc.,.

Not sure what to say as far as diagnosis and solutions... I would advice to avoid those short moves if at all possible (I hate them, lol) though I'm unsure if moving them back would do more harm than good at this point.  If it's not robbing hopefully they'll just reorient.  Having a swarm would have to be coincidental, unless a move can trigger that? (news to me).

Best of luck!

Cheers,
Dane

[annette]

Hi Annette,

I think short moves are more difficult than long one precisely because of the re-orientation.  I don't care how much crap you pile up in front of the entrances, once the bees are out and flying, using the sun and who knows whatever landmarks, etc., to navigate, they come back to where the hive used to be.  With a longer-distance move, they don't have that option.

I moved several (~10?) of my hives a short distance... I knew it would be a hassle but it was unavoidable.  Due to the number of hives I had enough stragglers (or whatever one calls those that would not re-orient to the new hive locale) that they ended up forming a pretty decent sized cluster.  It almost seemed like a swarm, but it wasn't.  I actually ended up hiving it and throwing in a few frames of eggs/larvae, they raised their own queen and are doing quite well now.

So, back to your issue.  The clustering, etc., around the hive sounds unique in my short-move experience.  Are there a bunch still flying around the old location?  I'd also verify and take extra precaution to prevent robbing.  If the hive is a bit disoriented from the move and other hive's foragers just think a new cured-honey source showed up, you might not see the typical defensive behaviour.  Reduce that entrance, open up and see if there's a lot of recent uncapping, etc.,.

Not sure what to say as far as diagnosis and solutions... I would advice to avoid those short moves if at all possible (I hate them, lol) though I'm unsure if moving them back would do more harm than good at this point.  If it's not robbing hopefully they'll just reorient.  Having a swarm would have to be coincidental, unless a move can trigger that? (news to me).

Best of luck!

Cheers,
Dane

They do not seem to be flying around the old site anymore. Should I place a robbing screen on this hive???

[annette]

Could they have swarmed and returned?  I had a hive do that and it looked similar to what you describe.

The hive did not have any swarm cells as of this morning, when I checked on them very carefully, but I guess anything is possible at this point.

[Michael Bush]

My guess is they will settle in after a day or two.  Just make sure there is room in the hive for them.  I wouldn't put a robber screen on as it will only make it more difficult for them to get in as they didn't leave through one.

[SgtMaj]

You just recently hit the summer dearth there, right?  I seem to recall another post saying you had just hit it this week or last... so it will be a little while before the next flow begins there, correct?  If so, then now is probably the least harmful time to lose forager-age bees, because most of them would be dead by the time the fall flow began, anyway.  The biggest concern I would have is the loss of forager bees carrying water to the hive for air conditioning purposes.  That shouldn't be a major concern though, as long as your temperatures weren't above 100 degrees yesterday... if not, then the brood overheating shouldn't be any concern whatsoever...  and so long as you didn't lose any brood, don't worry about it because today there'll be hundreds of newly turned forager-age bees that can carry enough water for the A/C needs of the hive.

So basically I'm just saying, I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.  You should be more concerned about Varroa this time of year than with losing those few bees.

[golddust-twins]

Annette,  Let us know what happened...Did you stay and watch the bees or did you check back this morn.

I know this must bee rather upsetting since your most recent loss of the other hive.

                   Corinne

[Robo]

I'm with Dane on this one.   

There is a reason people recommend moving a hive miles away or just 1 foot a day.   Yes there are little tricks you can try and use, and others have done it successfully, but you are flirting on marginal and the chances are higher for situations like this to happen.   That is one of the dangers taking input from others that deviates for the accepted standard.  I don't doubt these things work, especially for the one suggesting,  but there is a higher likelihood for issues to arise. There are also the risks that there are mitigating factor in the proccess that the person suggesting fails to mention or is not even aware of, but avoids just by the way they perform it.  I think at times we all fail to evaluate how well something works verses it worked for someone sometime somewhere because we "like" the way it sounds.

At this point, I think you just have to wait for them to straighten themselves out an settle down.  Hopefully it won't set them back.

[SgtMaj]

There is a reason people recommend moving a hive miles away or just 1 foot a day.   Yes there are little tricks you can try and use, and others have done it successfully, but you are flirting on marginal and the chances are higher for situations like this to happen.   That is one of the dangers taking input from others that deviates for the accepted standard.  I don't doubt these things work, especially for the one suggesting,  but there is a higher likelihood for issues to arise. There are also the risks that there are mitigating factor in the proccess that the person suggesting fails to mention or is not even aware of, but avoids just by the way they perform it.  I think at times we all fail to evaluate how well something works verses it worked for someone sometime somewhere because we "like" the way it sounds.

I must have missed the post where someone gave her the suggestion to move this hive...

[Robo]

I must have missed the post where someone gave her the suggestion to move this hive...

I guess you must of.................



No one suggested that she move the hive, that was her desire.  There was advice on how to move it.  My statement was meant to be broader than just this incident.

[Ross]

I do short moves fairly often.  Some of the bees will return to the old location.  Some will end up in the hive next to the old location.  I do this sometimes to beef up hives for queen rearing.  The moved hive will loose a few bees, but I've never had a hive really suffer from a short move.  Give them a few days, maybe feed if they don't have forage.

[Pond Creek Farm]

I had to move hives about two hundred yards up a hill to avoid a repeat flood.  I cannot rcall who gave me this advice (I want to say JP, but I could be wrong there), but I was told to leave a hive body at the old location and go back every day and bring the bees back to the new location.  It worked great for me.  Every day for about three days there were fewer and fewer bees at the old location.  They all seem to like their new home atop the hill.

[annette]

!!!!!UPDATE!!!!

Drove up this morning at 0630Am before leaving for work and not one bee on the ground anywhere. I did notice some foragers flying around all over the place again, but this was very encouraging to see this. I expected to find dead bees all over the place. I walked all around the place and did not see any.

I imagine when I come home this afternoon, I might find a similar situation as yesterday, but hopefully less.

This is a very strong hive with 2 mediums full of brood and a whole super full of capped honey. I made sure they have plenty of room in all supers.

Thanks for the help and concerns. I know I can always count on you all for the support I need. Sorry to act so wimpy, but too many things going wrong all at once and I started to lose my confidence in a big way.

We are headed for 100 degrees again today, hopefully it will not affect anything.

Take care
Annette

[golddust-twins]

Annette,  when I moved my hive in May it was a night.  Part of the hive came apart and bees flew out and all over the place.  They were so mad and I was afraid I may have lost the part of the hive to the cool night air.  I thought they couldn't find their way to their hive after I moved it.  I expected to see dead bees.  When I checked early morn  not one bee dead they had found their home in the new location.    >I imagine when I come home this afternoon, I might find a similar situation as yesterday, but hopefully less.  You will and it will be.  And tomorrow even less.

                Hang Tough ;) you're doin good,
                       Corinne

[annette]

Annette,  when I moved my hive in May it was a night.  Part of the hive came apart and bees flew out and all over the place.  They were so mad and I was afraid I may have lost the part of the hive to the cool night air.  I thought they couldn't find their way to their hive after I moved it.  I expected to see dead bees.  When I checked early morn  not one bee dead they had found their home in the new location.    >I imagine when I come home this afternoon, I might find a similar situation as yesterday, but hopefully less.  You will and it will be.  And tomorrow even less.

                Hang Tough ;) you're doin good,
                       Corinne

Thanks for the encouragement Corinne.I am feeling better about the whole thing now.

[SgtMaj]

No one suggested that she move the hive, that was her desire.  There was advice on how to move it.  My statement was meant to be broader than just this incident.

I know, and of course I realize that you were only saying it to be a jerk to me, and remind people that I was clearly wrong in this thread: http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,16465.0.html

Even though we both know your comment was more specifically aimed at me, I guess it's a good thing she didn't follow my advise which didn't even go that far, though she did follow the advise that several others gave... so in trying to be a jerk to me, you were actually being a bit more of a jerk to them...

Clearly you were right though, and we were all wrong; and between you and I, you're clearly the better beekeeper.  So, congratulations on being a better beek than a complete newbie to it; of course, everyone else on here are better, more experienced beekeeps than I am, too.  Although, most of the rest of them didn't seem to need to go around with an I told you so, I'm better than you are attitude either.  So, I hope that gave you the feelings of superiority you desire.   ;)

PS - The fact that you're a better beek than I, still doesn't mean that I or others are always going to follow your advise over that of other beeks.

[Kathyp]

i have moved bees short distances and ended up with a good number of confused bees.  i always figured they'd be smart enough to get in some place.  they seem to have a pretty good survival instinct.  i use an entrance reducer and some grass to re-direct them.  i figure even if i lose a few hundred, they queen will make up the difference in short order.

think of the 100s we lose when we do cutouts.  no only do we kill many and leave many behind, but we completely mess up their home and orientation.  still, they usually make it ok.

[Robo]

I guess you must of.................



No one suggested that she move the hive, that was her desire.  There was advice on how to move it.  My statement was meant to be broader than just this incident.

I know, and of course I realize that you were only saying it to be a jerk to me, and remind people that I was clearly wrong in this thread: http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,16465.0.html

Even though we both know your comment was more specifically aimed at me, I guess it's a good thing she didn't follow my advise which didn't even go that far, though she did follow the advise that several others gave... so in trying to be a jerk to me, you were actually being a bit more of a jerk to them...

Clearly you were right though, and we were all wrong; and between you and I, you're clearly the better beekeeper.  Hope that gave you the feelings of superiority you desire.   ;)  That still doesn't mean that I or others are always going to follow your advise over that of other beeks though.

Believe it or not it had nothing to do with you.  I had even forgotten about that post.  It had more to do with some of the things people do successfully around here after years of experience and than suggest it is easy.  One example is small cell.   There is a reason that there is a disclaimer in the catalogs that it is only for experienced beekeepers.  Now I'm not saying the things suggested don't work, the question is how consistently they work for people who have no beekeeping experience.   If someone doesn't understand the need to keep frames tightly pushed together with the extra spaces on the outside (which we see all the time here),  then they are gonna miss some of the finer points that these experienced beekeepers take for granite.

I have to admit though that you do get under my skin at times with your willingness to give out advice that you have no experience with.  I personally find that dangerous,  especially for those taking the advice as proven experience.  But, as much as we can disagree,  I do have to commend you on not getting into personal attacks.  I have no problem agreeing to disagree as long as we are civil about it.

Trust me,  I don't have a bunch of groupies here that follow everything I say, nor do I desire such a thing. And I don't claim to be a superior beekeeper, in fact every time I give a presentation, I always state something to that up front.   I do have many years of experience and have tried a lot of stuff and have made a lot of mistakes. I give my opinion and share experience so that hopefully people can avoid some of the pitfalls I have taken, but ultimately they can do what they want with it.  Some appreciate it, some just ignore it.

As Carly Simon would say....Your so vain, you probably thought that post was about you ;)

[SgtMaj]

I have to admit though that you do get under my skin at times with your willingness to give out advice that you have no experience with.  I personally find that dangerous,  especially for those taking the advice as proven experience.

I could tell that it did, and let me just say that my willingness to give out advise comes from a willingness to share things that I've read or been told before.  Yes, sometimes I get it wrong, and sometimes what I read or was told was wrong, but the bottom line is that there are 6 and half billion other people on this planet, and if we all waited until we were the most experienced person in the world about a subject to share anything about it, none of us would have any advise to give about anything, and anyone seeking advise for their situation, would have a much harder time getting it.

One of the great things about humans though, and one of the things that separates us from our much harrier cusins is that we can learn from others without doing it ourselves, and once learned, we can pass that knowlege on to others as well.  So for example, when I've just finished reading one of George Imirie's pink pages about how you can use light syrup to stimulate brood rearing and comb building, then come here and read someone's post asking how they can get their bees to build more comb, I can suggest they try the light syrup with fair confidence that such advise will help them, even though I have no experience doing that myself.  Perhaps if I do I better job citing the sources of any advise I give, then it might not get on your nerves so much.

As Carly Simon would say....Your so vain, you probably thought that post was about you ;)

:-D Clever.  I LOL'd