New Hive - Gaps & Mold

antaro · April 30, 2011, 06:21:35 PM

First post so be gentle. Installed my hive four weeks ago (Italian), located in rainy Portland, OR.

So here is the deal. All appears to be well in my hive. Did my third inspection today and the bees appear to be cruising right along. Capped brood, lots of pollen, saw the queen. Good times. HOWEVER, each week I have noticed a lot of dampness on the wood of my frames (including rusted nails which I swore were galvanized). The top-bar wood on the end frames (1 & 10) seem to have expanded a bit from the water and today frame 1 had some mold growing on it (just on the top bar, obviously the result of water on the wood).

Okay. So now I am a bit concerned as mold isn't ever good for anything. After looking around my hive a bit I realized that the lower deep is not flush with the inner cover. In fact, the bees started building some burr comb on the top of the frames, due to the fact that there is too much bee space in there.

My question is as follows: How do I suck up the extra space that was the result from a poorly fit lower deep and inner cover? Is there something I can put in there? Note that I am likely going to have this problem on all my deeps/supers as I raise since nothing seems to be perfectly flush. Not sure if this was the result of bad wood to begin with or user error building (first time). I know that ventilation is good for the bees, but this seems excessive to me to the point that A). The bees have too much space & B). Water is getting in the hive and molding frames. This is Oregon and it rains. A lot.

Surely I am not the first with this problem?
Many thanks in advance.

wd · April 30, 2011, 08:13:18 PM

I have my hives titled slightly forward for run off. Is it condensation or dose it leak? A migratory cover might be an option, I like them.

When needed, I scrap it off and toss it into a can/bucket

antaro · April 30, 2011, 08:36:51 PM

My guess is that it is leaking, but I could be wrong.
What would a migratory cover provide for me?

wd · April 30, 2011, 08:46:38 PM

Quote from: antaro on April 30, 2011, 08:36:51 PM
What would a migratory cover provide for me?

A flat surface, the lip for the gain in space is removed. My boxes tend to expand with age, the space between the frames in upper and lower boxes also expand, excess comb is built there too. I scrap it off as well when needed and when I can.

AllenF · April 30, 2011, 09:56:41 PM

Seal up the lid good if you think it is leaking. Paint it or whatever you can do. Bees will seal up the inside.

fish_stix · April 30, 2011, 11:16:28 PM

Do you have one of those inner covers that has more space on one side than the other or is flat on one side? If so turn it over to the short side to lessen the burr comb. Or get rid of the inner cover completely. The lid will get propolized but a simple pry with your hive tool will break it loose. I've never used inner covers and neither do most commercial beekeepers. For the moisture problem try an upper entrance to increase ventilation.

buzzbee · May 01, 2011, 12:13:54 AM

If using a telescoping cover in northern climates,leave the inner cover on. You will need a jackhammer to remove the outer cover without an inner cover.If you want to remove inner covers,change over to a migratory top.
Your inner cover should hae a ventilation notch/upper entrance hole.

http://www.beeclass.com/dts/topcoverinnercover.htm

Kathyp · May 01, 2011, 12:30:50 AM

let me shed a little light on beekeeping in our area :-D

1st, tip the hive forward as wd suggested. that way the moisture that WILL get into your hives will run down the front and not pool or drip. i use migratory covers and they work fine with an inner cover. if you feel that the wind might be driving the rain under it, try some roofing paper around the sides until the weather changes. you can just staple a strip on each side. you may want to consider drilling a couple of SMALL holes in each inner cover so that water that gets on it, can drain out. again, the tipping of the hive is key.

what you have on the top of your frames is burr comb. happens. not a big deal. better there than between frames. if you got your inner covers from Ruhl, they should have a shallow and deep side. try the shallow side, but some bees still build in that smaller space. it's fine. the lid should not fit flush to the frames. there is supposed to be some space there.

the mold should take care of itself as the hive builds and the weather changes. i wouldn't worry about that around here either. it's the state crop.

antaro · May 01, 2011, 01:15:56 AM

Many many thanks to everyone who has taken the time to respond.
Very excited to have found a community of beekeepers willing to so readily help out. Much appreciated.

Perhaps I didn't do a great job explaining the problem, but I don't think a new cover will assist. Water isn't getting in from up top, rather likely from the sides (via rain/wind) due to a misfitting match between the deep(s) and the inner cover. Attached find some pictures. Not sure if this was an error with the kit (PNW from Ruhl), an error with my construction (not sure how that would occur on the horizontal), or just warping in the past week (pissing rain/wind).

Thanks to Kathy for the tar paper idea. That might be key. Also appreciate the tips on PNW keeping. Glad to know that the mold will go away. I have my hive tipped, but maybe not enough to stop the mold?

Now that the pictures are up, do people feel like this will be a nasty/ongoing issue? Is the gap too big for the bees to handle? I imagine it will be nice ventilation in the summer, but death in the winter/fall/spring.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

CapnChkn · May 01, 2011, 01:38:57 PM

Hello!

I didn't read too carefully, so if I am explaining something you didn't ask don't get mad. First you have a telescoping cover. The inner cover you have there is supposed to be on the top, and it's a ventilated cover. It's supposed to have that 3 inches of space at the top. It should also have a solid, with a 3 inch hole in the middle, bottom covered with screen. That is supposed to offer a buffer space between the outer cover, and the hive. Keeping the temperature more manageable like the attic in your house.

The "Bee space" is an abstract concerning the amount of space a bee will recognize as a "right of way." It's between 1/4 to 3/8 inches (6 to 9 mm). Anything more, they build wax comb in it, any less they fill it with sap from trees, called propolis.

(Image from page posted above by Buzzbee.)

This image is a conventional inner cover, and would have 1/4 inch (6mm) of space between the plate, and the outer cover. With a Telescoping cover, named because the hive body slides into a socket like the recursive tubes in a telescope, the bees would stick stuff in the cracks and it would be difficult, if not impossible, to get a tool under the lip to remove it.

As for the mold, the bees would set up housekeeping, and because they don't have toothbrushes and sonic brushes to remove it, may look nasty, but they will clean it out. The top cover should fit loosely enough that the holes will be uncovered to allow the air to circulate, and the lip of the outer cover should cover the holes enough to keep moisture from dribbling into those holes.

BTW, this forum has a "clean language" policy, I think I've gotten away with "crapping." Try thinking "the neighbor's kids."

Kathyp · May 01, 2011, 01:53:46 PM

first thing i'd do is get rid of that ventilated thing in the middle. you probably never need that here, but you sure don't need/want it in winter/spring! that's probably the answer to your problem.

ventilation is over-rated, and very much misunderstood by most beekeepers. especially new beekeepers.

i am curious as to why you have two boxes on if this is a new package? is this ventilated thing supposed to be like a queen excluder between a brood box and honey super, or is it entirely designed for ventilation? if it's the latter, i'd think it should be on the very top just before your cover. if it's dividing two deeps intended for brood, that's way to much space. if you put 2 deep already for a 3lb package from this year (last month?) two deeps is way more space than they need. that could be contributing to your mold problem.

are you confused yet? :-D

sc-bee · May 01, 2011, 02:05:30 PM

Alot of inner cover usage is an area thing, as in where you are located and what most do.

I have never run inner covers at all. With telescoping covers it does become an issue with bees sealing the cover and making it hard to pry off. It will cause you to split the sides of the telescoping cover. I know it is not proper but I usually keep extra bricks in the yard and if I have one really stuck, I hit the corner of the cover upward to dislodge it. I know bad beekeeping practice but, that is the way my 79 year old mentor does it and I just picked up the habit :-D

When I need ventilation in the summer I just prop a small stick under the cover at the back to create draft.

I have some migratory cover and they are easier to pry off because of the flat surface.

I have never run a cover as you have above but as already said I believe you have it in the wrong position. Burr comb is something at times you are just gonna have. Even some colonies just build more that others. Any extra space they will tend to burr together if enough room is left. Even the space between the inner cover and the telescoping cover or ventilating cover, if enough room is left and the bees have no other space that has been provided to build in.

There was recently an article in Beeculture comparing the different bee supply companies wooden ware. It seemed to all differ a little. As you buy more equipment, if you feel this is an issue, try not to mix and match equipment from different suppliers.

I just mix and match where I find the best deal and scrape burr comb if i have to ;)

Good Luck and hang in there!

antaro · May 01, 2011, 02:12:55 PM

Thanks again for the help, folks.
To answer questions: The reason that my inner cover (with the vent holes) is in the middle of two deeps is due to the fact that the lower is where my bees currently reside and the upper is covering my bucket feeder. There is nothing in there except the ol' feeder delivering sugar water. Bees only have access to the lower. Once I get rid of the bucket feeder (whenever it stops raining), The cover will be on the top.

The inner cover (again with vent holes) is not a queen excluder. It was recommended to me at Ruhl when I bought my PNW starting hive kit. I didn't question it as they seemed to be responsible/knowledgeable folk. It looks like they have changed the design slightly, but here is the specs on the piece (Vivaldi Board):
http://www.bee-outside.com/vivaldiboard.aspx

Is the consensus to nix this cover? I have a high opinion of the Ruhl folks, but maybe I was steered wrong. Again, not only does it have the vent holds but it also doesn't appear to fit very well. But that could be a design issue with the deeps and not necessarily the cover.

AliciaH · May 01, 2011, 02:19:17 PM

Since it is still early in the year, maybe just go ahead and substitue a traditional inner cover for the one you have. I can see the advantages of the holes for added ventilation, but the feeder box has a great deal of space in it, so I don't think ventilation would be an issue right now.

You can add the fancy inner cover when you have enough build up to warrent the 2nd deep for a brood chamber and when the weather isn't quiet so icky on an ongoing basis. We are still hoping for a "real" summer at some point, right? :)

Kathyp · May 01, 2011, 02:28:24 PM

ahhh. it's not such a problem then. your plan is fine. the folks at ruhl are really good and they are helpful. i have enjoyed having them in area and even buy from them when i don't have time for an order or just need a few things.

personally, that ventilated cover is something i would have skipped, but it will be fine if/when our weather warms. for the sake of money savings in the future, you might want to consider a traditional inner cover that you can slip a twig under for ventilation in the summer. you will not want that much in winter or spring.

sc-bee · May 01, 2011, 02:31:03 PM

Got-ya on the cover issue now w/feeder :-D. I just make a flat cover like an inner cover with a hole in the center to accommodate the jar or pail feeder from a piece of old plywood using a hole saw. You can put a super over it to cover it. Ditch the ventilation cover if you feel it is an issue causing the mold and try something different.

Kathy is more equipped to answer that kind of question for your region. Bees usually handle mold as they expand, even old molded drawn frames.

Kathy is Chalk Brood a possible issue due to the dampness?

Tommyt · May 01, 2011, 03:21:53 PM

The reason that my inner cover (with the vent holes) is in the middle of two deeps

Maybe if you take that and flip it over it will match up better to your other box's??
of plane it down,If you know that is the problem I would caulk it or seeing how its temp
Duct Tape is everyones friend
Good luck

Tommyt

Kathyp · May 01, 2011, 03:27:30 PM

QuoteKathy is Chalk Brood a possible issue due to the dampness?

we have it around here and it is a fungus. if they pick it up and the conditions are right, it can be in issue. most of the time it's self correcting but i have had it to the point that it took down a hive.

have not had a problem with it for several year and i'm thankful for that!

wd · May 01, 2011, 04:02:50 PM

I checked out ruhl, did it come with corks to plug up the vents? I haven't found the need or want to use those, to much space under the cover alone. If it didn't leak, it would work with an inverted jar of syrup inside in empty top box. To me, it's in the wrong place other wise, should be on top. anyway, looks warped or it was cut wrong. hang in there.

sc-bee · May 01, 2011, 04:30:58 PM

Deleted------- wrong post ---Sorry! ;)