A General Hive Question

[The15thMember]

The only question I'd have is whether it will be difficult to overwinter a nuc in Terri's climate.  I've never overwintered a nuc, so I have no experience, but I would guess that for much of the winter it will be too cold in SE PA for bees to take syrup.  I might be inclined to put them in a full sized hive box and feed them so they have enough stored for the winter.  Or you could feed them solid sugar all winter I guess, provided the nuc has some sort of feeding spacer and five frames of bees has enough critical mass to keep warm. 

[Bill Murray]

See I dont know the exact weather situation, I overwinter them all the time. Just my opinion better to have 4 full frames in a 5 frame box vrs 10 frame box.  but down here the problem is the bees not moving off the brood during a couple week freeze.

[beesnweeds]

Im north and overwintered nucs fine, but I found that 5 over 5 is best.  Some 5 frame nucs came out of winter a little on the weak side so I went to all 5/5 years ago. The most important winter prep is low mite count.  If a nuc goes into winter with 3 or more mites per 300 bees their chance of overwintering is greatly reduced. 

[Terri Yaki]

My mentor overwinters nucs and my spring nuc came out of one of them. He's an advocate for fondant when it gets too cold for syrup plus pollen patties. And of course, all bees are different and he tells me that the nuc that I got didn't touch either the pollen or fondant last winter. I can make shims to place under the cover to make room for fondant and pollen patties and I guess I should start looking into that now, I prefer to stay ahead of the curve on such things. And I was wondering what, if anything, I should do to help them build their own stores in prep for the winter. If I can induce them to store enough so I don't have to feed them, I'd prefer that.

[Ben Framed]

So I am with Philip,Im way further south than you also, but I see no reason you cant overwinter a 5 frame, If they are healthy, have plenty of bees and ample stores. I would stack on the 5 frame, Feed, and condense down before real winter sets in  if needed.

Bill that is just what I did the following Spring. I added another 5 frame empty on top of each just before the flow, and off to the races they went. When these were pretty well filed or most had comb drawn, it gave me 10 frames of deeps which I then transferred into a single deep 10 framer and I added an empty 10 on top of that. Worked out real well. As with.many dealings with bees, timing is a key element.

Phillip

[beesnweeds]

He's an advocate for fondant when it gets too cold for syrup plus pollen patties.

I dont have a lot of experience with pollen patties because I found they dont make a difference in my hives.  Im surprised he feeds pollen patties during the winter, thats the time you dont want them to raise brood.  Typically, patties are added in late winter.

[Ben Framed]

He's an advocate for fondant when it gets too cold for syrup plus pollen patties.

I dont have a lot of experience with pollen patties because I found they dont make a difference in my hives.  Im surprised he feeds pollen patties during the winter, thats the time you dont want them to raise brood. Typically, patties are added in late winter.

Depends on location. Terris winter location is similar to yours I assume. I for another dont use >pollen patties< period. I have found no need in my location for any season.

[Bill Murray]

I for another dont use >pollen patties< period.

I dont use pollen substitute period, If on an occasion protien is needed I use homemade pollen patties. I found very little difference on brood production when using pollen substitutes.

[Terri Yaki]

He's an advocate for fondant when it gets too cold for syrup plus pollen patties.

I dont have a lot of experience with pollen patties because I found they dont make a difference in my hives.  Im surprised he feeds pollen patties during the winter, thats the time you dont want them to raise brood.  Typically, patties are added in late winter.

You may be right on this and I'll have to check with him. My first experience with him was in early April and I thought he had used them through the winter.

[Ben Framed]

I for another dont use >pollen patties< period.

I dont use pollen substitute period, If on an occasion protien is needed I use homemade pollen patties. I found very little difference on brood production when using pollen substitutes.

I used the sub my first year because of my concern of my first bees. I wanted to do everything in my power to insure they survived and thrived. This is when amd wjwre I talked to David at Barnyard Bees by both comments his videos and via phone where he explained what it is he does which has proven successful in his commercial bee production. Worked for me. 😊

As beesnweeds I no longer use pollen sub of any type. I did the pollen patties the following spring as does Ian Steppler but my trouble there was SHB unlike him in Canada. There again, this is where location plays an important part of how we as individual beekeepers manage our bees.

Phillip

[Bill Murray]

Well what I found was no more than they can take in 3-4 days. And on day 4 you better be making sure anything thats left is removed from the hive. Or the beetle larva are atrocious. Reason it has to be a must before I engage.

[Ben Framed]

Makes perfect sense Bill. The SHB break outs can be bad here at times. I can just imagine how bad they may become >at times< further South as in your Florida!

Phillip

[Terri Yaki]

I might should know this by now but I don't...It sounds like they don't need pollen through the winter and it's just used as food for the brood? Would that also mean that honey is all they use to carry them through the winter?

[Bill Murray]

No thats not exactly true, as the bee ages its need for protein decreases, Foraging age bees cant digest pollen and beebread is passed to them as needed.

[Ben Framed]

Location is a consideration here as well. For example; Our fellow beekeeper in Australia, Lesgold bees never go completely brood-less even in Winter. This is why he is working so diligently on developing a queen cage to meet his satisfaction, to help his bees go brood-less artificially,  seeking a Winter brood break.

I am of the understanding that in my area they come to a halt for a time in the winter months, but even in Canada, in late Winter the Queen will begin slowly laying, but there again only enough for the winter bees to successfully be able to attend. Pollen, (bee bread), is necessary.

Being this is your first year to actually keep bees, I shared with you my experiences of what I did in first year as well. My 5, 5 frame emergency nuc situation was a circumstance where the splits were made under an emergency situation. Bees definitely need pollen stores for late Winter in order to be prepared to feed late winter brood, and that would include your area as well. But you should be just fine since you are not making (late) Fall splits. Your bees should gather enough pollen for storage before winter sets in. And remember we still have the Fall goldenrod flow which should provided your bees with pollen gathering opportunity for their own needs.

[beesnweeds]

I might should know this by now but I don't...It sounds like they don't need pollen through the winter and it's just used as food for the brood? Would that also mean that honey is all they use to carry them through the winter?

Yes, pollen is not really food for adult bees it?s for the developing larval bees that will form the future workforce.  Long lived or winter bees, also called "diutinus" bees have high fat bodies and can raise brood from that fat by producing brood food from glands.  Honey is the carbs for bees to overwinter and pollen is the protein to raise brood.  As winter progresses and the winter bees deplete fat bodies, they can use the stored pollen to produce brood food.  The raising of winter bees is triggered by the LACK of pollen, thats why its counterproductive to feed pollen subs in the fall.  Feeding pollen in late summer or early fall extends normal brood rearing and not the raising of winter bees and can increase mite load.

[The15thMember]

The raising of winter bees is triggered by the LACK of pollen, thats why its counterproductive to feed pollen subs in the fall.  Feeding pollen in late summer or early fall extends normal brood rearing and not the raising of winter bees and can increase mite load.

Interesting!  I wonder how that relates to areas like mine where I have a big pollen flow in the fall.  Perhaps my bees are raising the winter bees later than I assumed. 

[beesnweeds]

Interesting!  I wonder how that relates to areas like mine where I have a big pollen flow in the fall.  Perhaps my bees are raising the winter bees later than I assumed.

Im not sure but you can start with this information.

Mattila HR and GW Otis. 2007. Dwindling pollen resources trigger the transition to broodless populations of long-lived honeybees each autumn. Ecological Entomology. 32:496-505.

Mattila HR and GW Otis. 2007. Manipulating pollen supply in honey bee colonies during the fall does not affect the performance of winter bees. Canadian Entomologist. 139:554-563.

[The15thMember]

Thanks, I'll take a look.

[beesnweeds]

Thanks, I'll take a look.

You're welcome.  In my area August is the period that would trigger the start of raising winter bees in early September.  When pollen starts coming in at a high rate here in the fall its stored for spring brood rearing.  Pollen patties/subs are not stored.